Transforming dysfunctional relationships| 15 May 2020 | ISKCON New Govardhana
Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare,
Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.
So this is about relationships. In the material world, we have relationships everywhere. So as far as material bodies are concerned, we can say that relationships are natural. Like so many animals have different instincts, so the idea of having relationships is also something very natural. We see it all over the animal kingdom, and particularly in the higher animals who find this tendency to group together. It’s very, very strong tendency.
And of course, among human beings, we find this is also so. And we actually find that now in the present day, people are stuck in their houses and they’re all alone [Laughs]. They want to associate with other people [Laughs], and they have to keep social distance [Laughs], and they’ve got to keep apart from them. And they find it very frustrating because they want to be close to people.
And some places, I just saw today in the news that legally they couldn’t close the pubs in Wisconsin [Laughs], America. So the court orders, you have to open the pubs. So immediately they announced, we’re going to open the pubs in 45 minutes. And then right when they open them, they’re all full of people. And they forgot about wearing masks, keeping distance from each other, all crowded [Laughs] in all the different pubs there. And they’re all having a good time [Laughs], drinking and talking and eating together. So in spite of the dangers in that, they ignore that because they’re social animals [Laughs]. They want to congregate together, and that instinct is very, very strong. So it’s not only in the animals, but in the human beings also.
However, human beings have much more complex relationships than animals. The relationships between animals are quite simple. Usually, it’s parental relationships. We see the mother raises the young animals up and takes care of them. And they grow up, and then they go away from home or sometimes they get into a bigger group, and they go around in flocks or whatever [Laughs], or herds or whatever like that together. And they have some sort of order. They’ve got someone in charge, and they’ve got the other ones following. But basically they’re there to protect that whole community. They protect their group by that method of coming together. But the relationships are relatively simple.
When we come to human beings, we can say it’s related. One is a reflection of the other. The human beings relationships are a reflection of the animal relationships. But it becomes much more complex. And the reason for that is that, the human mind has higher development. And of course one of the uses of that mind is to think of spiritual things, not think of the body at all. But because the mind is quite complex and developed, that it stores a lot of information. And this creates a lot of problems for the human being. And it results in very complex relationships, not simple relationships.
Of course if we look at the original relationships in the spiritual world, one says they’re quite simple. They do have complexities, because otherwise it would be very boring. So it’s that complexity of the relationship in the spiritual world which creates rasa. In the material world, it also creates rasa, but the rasa is not very pleasant [Laughs]. Often it’s quite disastrous in the material world. So we have a lot of problems because of that. That’s why people like to have dogs, pet dogs. Because the relationship is quite simple. The dog’s relationship with the human being is very simple. They’re not hung up, they’re not mental about anything. So therefore, it’s easier to have a relationship with a dog than it is to have a relationship with another human being [Laughs]. But it’s not completely satisfying either, because they’re different species. There’s a problem there also. Anyway, we have these complex relationships in the human being because we do have a more highly developed mind, etc.
In the material world, if we analyze it from the spiritual point of view, we have the Jiva or the atma, who’s the center of consciousness. But his desire is to get some happiness here for himself. If the JJiva did not have that desire, he would not be in the material world [Laughs]. Because we want to get some happiness for ourself without recognition of the Supreme Lord, therefore we try to establish relationships as a means of happiness. It’s not the only way we can get happiness, but it is one of those means, and it becomes one of the important means for the human being. We can develop a relationship with things. The whole idea is that it’s a little bit artificial, because the atma is there, but it’s very different from matter.
So, how does Jiva relate to matter? So, we have two things. We’ve got a subtle body and a gross body. And the gross body, of course, can interact with matter, no problem. Subtle body is intermediary between the gross body and the soul. So, within the subtle body we get the mind, intelligence and false ego. So, they take the consciousness of the Jiva and transform that, in such a way that it looks like the mind, intelligence and ego are operating separately from the atma, and they cooperate with the senses, and then the senses try to enjoy in the material world. So, our senses go out and try to establish some sort of relationships with things.
We see in the analysis of matter that we have – a sense, like the eye, and then we have a tanmatra, which is called the sense object or the vishaya. So, each particular sense has an object of that it gets attached to, and it’s through that object, that the person gets enjoyment. So, it is a contact of matter with matter. Material sense with sense object, which is also material, and then we get happiness. Of course, how can the atma get happiness from this chemical interaction, so to speak, of matter with matter? They actually cannot [Laughs]. So, the only way the Jiva can do that is when it identifies with the body and the senses and the mind by ahankara. And then it thinks it’s, I’m the mind or I’m the body, and then it can get some enjoyment out of these things. So, anyway, the senses automatically go out to touch the sense object and establish some sort of relationship there.
So, we can get relationships with objects. And this is very common in the world. People get obsessed with different things. And, for instance, the tongue. The tongue is for tasting. So, the tongue is a sense organ, then the sense object is taste. So, that taste resides in various objects of this world, and therefore we try to taste those objects, to get those objects and taste them, acquire them and taste them. So, this is so for all the senses. We have objects for the eye, objects for the ear, etc. And we can endeavour to satisfy all of our senses in this way. So, that is, we can say, relationship with things, objects of this world, which have particular sense objects which give us happiness.
This, of course, is also relative. For instance, the pig has a different sense happiness of sense objects than the human being. Or some human beings have different sense object happiness than others. So, the people are criticizing the people of Wuhan, how you can eat those objects in the market [Laughs]? But then, what are the people of Australia doing? They’re eating the objects of the butcher shop or whatever also [Laughs]. So, different people have different food habits, and what is delicious to one is not delicious to the other. And everybody has individual taste as well. So, it’s all relative. What is the happiness from taste, or from eye, or for ear, whatever, it’s relative to the person. Nevertheless, we try to get some happiness from this. And we can see it’s, of course, relative.
Some of the enjoyment is a little bit abstract, because people get attached to money. But what is money? It’s not a sense object you can enjoy [Laughs]. But it’s because you can get things to get your sense enjoyment with. Therefore, people get attached to money also, and they have a relationship with the possessiveness of their money also. So, this is like an indirect type of attachment, but something to do with the human mind. He can become attached to things that have no meaning at all, and in themselves they don’t give any sense gratification [Laughs].
So, we can all get our happiness from different sense objects, and people do that. But usually, the goal of people, or the goal of happiness, what they want to get their happiness is from a relationship with another human being. So, that becomes, everyone thinks, that’s the ultimate happiness, to establish a relationship with another human being. They may have the other relationships, but usually we have to balance that out with a relationship with a person. And therefore, we’ll find that in human society, there’s a lot of arrangements for association of people.
Of course, the common one is the family unit – husband, wife, and children. So, these are all relationships. Relationship between husband and wife. Relationship of the parents with the children. So, that’s one very strong relationship in this material world – the family unit. Very, very strong motive for people. And of course, it’s encouraged in most societies – “Have a Happy family” is the idea. So, everybody strives for that. And a happy family means husband, wife, and children. So, it’s a common goal around the world. And we’ll see that is emphasized in the Vedas as well. They have a marriage ceremony, so it’s a samskara. So, it’s an elaborate ceremony to sanctify a marriage. And the whole ceremony is there to give blessings of happiness. You should be happy together. And you should have ten children [Laughs]. That’s the blessing, have ten children [Laughs]. Live a long life, have ten children, etc. Be happy. So, it’s an encouragement of family life.
Apart from that, of course, then we have other relationships. We have friendship relationships, etc. All sorts of relationships. We have relationships with groups, bigger family groups. And then we have community relationships. And then, of course, we get country relationships, which are a little more artificial, but nevertheless, those are also there. We get caste relationships [Laughs]. In India, Brahmins are one group. Vaishyas are another group. Kshatriyas are another group. Sudras are another group. And they identify with their group. And in other countries they have that, or they did have it in ancient society. Probably it continues now they have the high-class aristocratic group, and the merchant groups, and things like this or the intelligentsia group. So, in any case, the people are interacting, and they get some satisfaction from the relationships within these different groups.
So, the idea is happiness. And though we get the happiness from these things, even if you have these things, you long for the happiness of the relationship. So, this becomes very, very prominent. Unfortunately, there’s a problem, just like there’s a problem with the food and everything else here. You know, the objects, whether it’s the objects, or whether it’s the humans, the problem is that it’s not real! In the sense that it’s not what we think it is. So, as I said, let’s say the food is all relative. What is good food is relative to countries, relative to individuals, etc. Relative to the species. The dog eats different food from the pig. It eats different food from the human being. And people in different countries say this is delicious. Others say it’s not delicious. So, it’s all relative. So, there’s no real standard. It’s all because we project things into objects.
And so the same thing happens with the relationships. We project what is supposed to be enjoyable on another person [Laughs]. And it becomes disastrous in some cases because of that. In terms of material objects, it’s not so disastrous because you can take an experience, I don’t like that, and you can just discard it. But with relationships, it’s a little more difficult. You can’t just keep discarding the relationships without causing big problems [Laughs]. But nevertheless, we’ve got a complex mechanism at work here which becomes more complex when the people have problems, mental problems [Laughs], we can say.
So, one is we develop a set of beliefs based upon our experiences of previous lifetime and in our childhood. And often that belief is we have a bad image of ourself. I’m not what I should be, I’m no good. And then we have a contrary image. I should be like this. So, we have a negative image. I’m that bad thing. And I should be like this. And we have an ideal image. And then we project that onto, or we identify with that image. And we become a victim of things. You know, I just have to suffer in this world. And we give up and we fail.
And then we have the other side with the artificial, but it’s positive, but it’s artificially positive. The opposite of the no good. This is the ideal image. And we associate that with success in life. And so we project these images onto others as well, in order to satisfy ourselves So, this becomes a big problem. And because the human being is not just a body, he’s also a subtle body. We’re not aware of the interaction between the gross body and the subtle body, and between two gross bodies interacting and two subtle bodies interacting. It’s a very complex thing.
So, because of all these concepts of images, etc., the relationships get very mixed up, especially on the subtle level. So, the subtle body is a body, but it’s very flexible, because it’s subtle material. So, according to your emotions, that body keeps changing into all sorts of shapes [Laughs]. And it can mold itself into different forms, etc., and it can project itself onto other people. So, here we just see the examples of the different forms that that subtle body takes, in different circumstances.
So, anyway, we have our false image of who we are, the negative image, and then the ideal positive image. So, these are not real. They’re just ideas in our head. But they mold our vision of what is the world. We see everything in terms of what we think we are. Just like if you wear colored glasses, then the whole world looks that color.
So, if you think you’re this negative person like that, then you see the whole world in terms of that. Or you see it in the opposite, by projecting the positive image. So, this, of course, creates a lot of problems for trying to get happiness, because we’re projecting these images of what you should be and what you’re not, or whatever it’s like that, all of which is completely false. Like that.
So, from the Vedic analysis, we understand that the whole world is maya. Not that it’s completely false, but when we see things in this world, or experience things, it’s actually a false experience. Which means that what we think is a nice experience, or is good, is not actually good. As I said, it’s relatively good, that each person has a different experience. But yet, we think this is what is real. But it’s just that the image that we have, that’s projected onto everything in this world. So, in terms of negativity or positivity, and we project that outward. So, that projection takes place, and it gets projected onto people.
So, instead of seeing the person as they are, we project the images that we have, either the negative image or the positive image, onto the other person, because we’re trying to get happiness out of our relationship [Laughs]. So, we’ll project all the positive, ideal images onto that other person, even if they don’t exist. And we think, this is a good person, I’ll get happiness from this relationship. So, we get expectations from our relationships. But it’s not based upon reality, it’s based upon projection of false images. So, that can only lead to failure, ultimately.
So, because it’s all based upon our expectations, and we cannot predict how other people are going to respond, and we can’t predict the circumstances that are going to happen, like for instance now, the circumstances, everybody’s locked in their houses, we can’t predict what’s going to happen, we can’t predict how the other person is going to react, when we do something or say something, we end up with a very unstable mind. Things do not work out according to what we predict, or what we expect. So, we may end up full of depression and failure and anger, etc., when things don’t work out. But the reason they don’t work out is because the expectation itself is false. We’re projecting the expectation on something which isn’t there. So, sooner or later, the reality will show through.
So, in this way, we not only project it outward, but the subtle body of the living entity also gets completely transformed or distorted by all these negative feelings and artificial feelings that take place within us. So, it’s a complex, artificial thought pattern we have, but it’s also physical in the sense it’s the subtle body. So, the subtle body, instead of operating nicely, it becomes clouded over and clogged up and cloudy and dark and whatever. And the subtle body is there and it stays with us all the time. So, we can’t escape it. We can’t escape that negative influence that we’ve got. It stays with us. So, often, because the situation at the present is similar to a past situation, then we will react in the same way as we did in the past. It’s not what is actually real, but it’s just what we assume is real.
So, we react to something because it’s got some similarity to a past event or a past person. And for others, it may look like an unreasonable response [Laughs]. We may get angry at something, and for us it’s justified. But actually, for everybody else, it doesn’t have any meaning. Why is he getting angry like this? So, it’s because we’re associating that with some past experience. And so, we’re projecting that onto the other person or the other circumstance.
So, therefore, some of the responses we may have be very inappropriate at the present time because they’re related to something in the past that’s no longer there. But we project that into the present. So, we end up in relationships with people because it’s very complicated, because each person is projecting.
We’re projecting expectations on other people, and they’re also projecting things on us. And neither of them knows the mind of the other person and what they’re projecting. So, everybody’s getting false expectations from the other person or they think this person is like that, or that person is like that. So, we’re living in a world where we establish relationships, and what we think the person is actually isn’t the person, it’s something else [Laughs]. It’s a false maya person that we’re thinking of.
And then we establish relationships based on that. Two people establish a relationship thinking the person is like this and that person is like that. So, that’s all maya. That’s complete maya. How can we have a true relationship when we have such a relationship? Not possible [Laughs]! So, this is just an expansion of that. We get all these sorts of problems as a result.
So, as I said, it’s all based upon maya. And ultimately, we have that false ego there. Even if we can have… we’re not so mental, and we don’t have so many emotional problems, still, we’re stuck with a false identity. Because we’re identifying with a body in this world, and we’re still trying to get enjoyment. So, therefore, whatever we do is still covered by that maya. And our attempts to get that enjoyment is going to fail. But, when we get to the person who’s got all these complexes and is projecting positive images and negative images on other people, then the relationship become impossible [Laughs].
So, if people are normal people, then they can carry on. It’s not a perfect relationship, but they can adjust. But, where we have persons who have this abnormal tendency, then the relationships are pretty hopeless, and it becomes very difficult to have any relationship at all. But, in any case, it’s all maya, and, therefore, there can be no real harmony at all.
So, as I said, we’re attempting to have relationships, just as animals have relationships, everyone is social. So, we have all sorts of relationships. But, very, very difficult to find satisfaction in these things. So, we end up with all sorts of emotional problems taking place between people because of the misidentification, etc.
So, in other words, we’re living in a rather false world, which is kind of exemplified now by the fact that we can use machines to make a false world, and we think we’re living in that world. You put the little glasses on, and you think there’s a ghost in front of you, you think there’s a monster in front of you [Laughs], like this, and whatever. So, the whole world, in one sense, is like that for everybody. That’s why it’s called maya. So, it’s not just the people that have a few emotional problems, but everybody is living in that maya world, and everything is, to some extent, false.
It’s not that the objects are false, but what we think they are is false. And that goes even for science [Laughs]. So, science has developed a whole paradigm of what is reality, based upon, molecules and electrons and whatever like this, and then small objects, big objects, and then universe and solar system and galaxies, etc. It’s a concept of looking at matter. But, it’s limited, because of our false ego, our senses, our mind, etc. So, it’s not the ultimate reality, by any means. It’s, we can say, a little bit closer to being objective than our subjective feelings for people, but nevertheless, still, we can’t say it’s absolutely true. So, that’s why when we discuss modern science, we shouldn’t put complete faith in it, that it’s absolute. No, it’s relative. It’s all part of maya.
So, as I said, in any case, all of this is very foreign to the atma, or the Jiva. The Jiva is completely separate from all of this maya that’s going on, where we’ve got the false ego, and the subtle body, and the gross body, and we’re trying to establish relationships, and getting happiness out of this material world. It’s completely different from the atma. Everything actually is acit – completely dull. No consciousness. And the Jiva has consciousness. So, there’s no way in which the Jiva can get satisfaction from a dead object. It’s like water and fire – how they can co-exist together ? So, how can the Jiva co-exist with matter? It can be there, but it cannot be happy!
The objects cannot experience happiness. Matter cannot experience happiness. It’s insentient, unconscious. The Jiva is conscious. It can experience happiness. So, how, by relating to matter, we can get happiness [Laughs] ? Because this cannot experience happiness at all. But we can do that by this false projection through ahankara, where we identify with the subtle body and the gross body. Then we can think we’re getting happiness. But it’s all illusion, and it’s very unnatural for the soul. So, no matter what we do in this world, we may get suffering, in which case we conclude the world is not a nice place to live. We may get happiness, and then we’ll think, Oh, the world is very nice, but still, we’re not happy.
So, if we take the richest people in the world, are they any happier than the other people? No. In fact, they’re more miserable in many cases [Laughs]. So, that’s because material things cannot really satisfy us, ultimately. And even if we got an ideal situation where we are level-headed, etc., we’re not projecting extremely on other people, still, very, very difficult to get that happiness. But it’s also the nature of the soul to get that happiness [Laughs]. But in the material world, we end up in the opposite situation. We strive for the happiness, cannot get it. So, we end up full of stress, which affects the body, affects our behavior, and causes our emotions to be irregular.
So, we can escape from physical and emotional pain. We can isolate ourselves from the causes. How do we do that? Get rid of that negative viewpoint, or whatever. Stop all the images that we’re projecting. Stop all the false beliefs that we have. So, this is what psychologists do, or psychiatrists try to do. Try to get rid of all of these false images that you have. It’s also often a very difficult process, and it doesn’t quite work [Laughs]. But they know what the problem is, but how to solve it, it’s very difficult. So, nevertheless, we should try to do that. Somehow we have to stop that mind from functioning in the way it does.
One process is the yoga process. This whole goal is to stop the mental functions completely. When you can do that, you get samadhi. And that means atma realization takes place. So, we realize we are not the body. But as we see, that’s also a very difficult process. It can be done, but it’s very difficult to do. Still, we can’t get rid of this problem, unless we do something with the mind, and stop this whole process. So, yoga can do it, but very, very difficult for us.
Yeah. So, the other way is higher taste. The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, although taste for sense objects remains. But ceasing such engagements by experience of higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness. So, the lower taste is the taste we get from material objects. The higher taste is the taste from the atma. The taste we’re getting from the material objects is there. Of course, we can say it’s related to the atma, but it’s directed towards objects of this world.
So, the atma is flowing outwards through the senses, trying to get happiness from material objects, which is impossible, because it’s completely unlike the objects. So, the idea is to reverse that, and not to give up even the sense objects, or the sense perceptions, or the workings of the senses, or the mind, but rather direct it inward to get the higher taste.
Okay, so, instead of going outwards, we have to go inward somehow or other. So, that’s why we talk about self-realization, whatever, God-realization, or in the modern world, they don’t want to use words like that, they call it spirituality, or whatever like that. So, this is an attempt to get out of the external flow of our senses outward with the atma, trying to get enjoyment here, and go inward, and work on the atma itself.
Okay, so, what is that higher taste? One, of course, is the taste of the atma being itself, not the body, or the senses, or relating to sense objects, so that’s satisfaction of the self. So, that’s what we call atmarama, which is impersonalism, but at least you’re satisfied with the self, not the external objects. But then the other higher taste is relating to Supreme Lord. So, that relationship we call rasa, that means taste [Laughs]. So, that verse was about taste here, to get a higher taste.
So, from our Vaishnava point of view, we say the taste that you get from realizing Brahman is actually not taste [Laughs]. Because in that Brahman realization, there is no taste, and there’s no object taste. There’s only oneness [Laughs].
So, taste requires a person to taste, and an object of taste. So, there’s no taste there in the Brahman realization. And if we have the taste in the material world, it is that false taste, because of identification with the false ego, and then experiencing objects of this world. And that doesn’t work either, because the objects are not like the atma at all. So, the real way of getting the taste is to relate the atma to the Supreme atma. They’re very similar.
We’ve got two spiritual entities, the Jiva and Supreme Lord, we got to make a relationship there. So, we have the Jiva experiencing, and what is he experiencing? He has a taste for the Supreme Lord. So, that relationship we call rasa. So, just as we try to establish material relationships and get happiness there, that’s what we call material rasa [Laughs]. But it’s the atma, and then we have the material aspect, and it doesn’t fit together. So, the real rasa, real relationship, is the spiritual relationship between the atma and Supreme Lord. So, that’s where we get the higher taste. That’s where we get real satisfaction. So, all these other attempts produce blockages in our aura and great problems, but if we connect to the Supreme Lord, then everything gets straightened out.
Everything becomes harmonious. Subtle body, gross body, relationship with the Supreme Lord. Because the atma is satisfied, everything else works out. So, we solve all the problems, materially and spiritually, by that relationship with the Supreme Lord.
See, there’s different layers here, of your subtle body. And the one around the body itself, then there’s a little bigger circle there, a little bigger circle there, a little bigger circle like that. So, these are the layers of your subtle body, which are not two-dimensional, but actually three-dimensional like that, or maybe more dimensional, but we can say at least three-dimensional. They expand around you, and they interpenetrate with each other also, like bodies.
So, and each of those bodies has particular functions, starting from the grossest function to the most subtle function. And so, there’s a progression from one part of the subtle body to the next in different layers. So, as we develop our connection with Krishna, then all these things get straightened out, one after the other. So, the lowest one, of course, is the physical body there in the center. The next is a little mental self-acceptance. The next is a little more intellectual, understanding the situation around us. Next is harmonious relationships, which has to do with the heart chakra also. And fifth is developing a higher purpose in life. Next is expression of bhakti.
And then there’s a connection with the Supreme Lord, in connection with everything. So, as we go to the higher and higher layers, we get more expansive consciousness, and we get higher bliss also. So, therefore, the connection with the Supreme Lord solves all the problems that we have in relation to everything, our self, our body, society, and Supreme Lord.
So, we become connected with everything in this way. Okay, so the process of doing that is that how do we develop that higher taste? We have to connect with the Supreme Lord. So, what is the process? It is the bhakti yoga. So, in that process, we do not stop the senses and the mind, though they are material, and they’re subject to maya. Rather, we engage the senses and the mind. So, of course, people may criticize, how can you get something spiritual by using material things? But this is the nature of bhakti.
By the Lord’s mercy, we can engage material things, and we get a spiritual result. So, by performing bhakti yoga, establishing relationship with the Lord, we can utilize our senses and our mind. So, in this process, what we are doing is – establishing a relationship. That’s what bhakti is. We’re establishing a loving relationship, which gives rise to bliss. But it is free of all those false identities that we have in the material world.
So, though we’re striving for happiness through relationships in the material world, the real way we can establish happiness is by relationship with Krishna. And to do that, we practice by using the material senses and the mind, and we direct that towards Krishna. And then they don’t have any negative effect, those material instruments.
Okay, so, in this process, we realize the Aham, or discover who the Self is, that’s our Self. And we discover Supreme Lord, and our relationship with the Supreme Lord. And by that relationship, then we get connected with everything else.
So, the rasa is there with the Supreme Lord, but in our Sampradaya, we emphasize the rasa with Krishna. And why is that? And the reason is, if we establish the rasa with other forms of the Lord, we do not get variety in the rasa. The most we can get is Santa rasa, or Dasya rasa, with Vishnu, Narayana, Ramachandra, or others. If we want to get variegated rasas, like Sakhya, Vatsalya, and Madhurya, then we have to establish a relationship with Krishna.
So, that we say is the difference between Krishna and the other forms of the Lord. It’s not because He’s better, or above and they are below, but because we can establish more relationships. Why? Because He has manifestation of more qualities. So, therefore, we can establish those types of relationships.
So, if you establish a relationship with Narayana, then you see Narayana as Supreme. And you see yourself as very small. And you develop an attitude of reverence. And you see Him as very powerful. And you act as a servant. So, it’s natural to be a servant. And you can’t project Sakhya or Vatsalya upon that form. You cannot tie up Vishnu with a rope, punish him like that. It doesn’t work [Laughs]. You cannot come up and say, Hi there [Laughs]. And give him something. I got something for you. You can’t do that informally. You can’t have Sakhya, Vatsalya, Madhurya. You’re forced because of that, the way in which Vishnu is presented. He’s in a position of power. He manifests powers. So, Dasya is very natural, or even Santa, neutral relationship.
So, if we want to get these higher relationships, which probably most people would like to have, Dasya is not such an aspired for relationship with most people, just to be a servant. They would like to have friendly relationship, parental relationship, or conjugal relationship. So, you can’t get that with God, unless you go to Krishna. So, you worship Krishna, then you can realize these types of relationships. So, that’s what puts Krishna in a special relationship, special position. Higher than the other forms of the Lord.
Yeah. So, therefore, by establishing a relationship with Krishna, we get the highest benefit for ourselves. We can get the higher type of bliss, instead of being limited to Santa or Dasya, then we can get these relationships. The higher we go here, like this, means that the experience is more intense, in terms of rasa and bliss. So, therefore, it’s beneficial for the Jiva to choose Krishna, because then he could experience more bliss. So, by worshiping Krishna, then we get more bliss.
And, of course, we see here that Madhurya Rasa has got the greatest bliss [Laughs]. So, that’s why we say, okay, we worship Radha Krishna for Madhurya Rasa, because then you can get the highest bliss that way. Okay, so we can have various, according to your choice, you’re not forced to take one or the other, but you could choose any of these relationships. So, it could be Sakhya, it could be Vatsalya, it could be Madhurya Rasa. It could be Dasya also, if you prefer Dasya. Or even Santa Rasa [Laughs].
So, establishing that relationship with the Lord is the cure for our attempt to get relationships. When that is established, all the relationships of the world become meaningless or useless, because we got this great happiness and satisfaction from the relationship with Krishna.
Oh, okay, fine.
Q & A
1) Question Maharaj, Thank you very very much for the wonderful class. Maharaj, you have said all the relationship in the world are not real. How can that be? We are experiencing it. This experience is part of human life or Jiva although it is dreaming ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: The experience is real, but what we think it is, is not like that. It’s something else. That’s all.
Devotee : [Audio not clear] We project a nature which is not real, but the relationship with the material nature and the emotions are not real ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Its real. Its real. Its real. Yeah.
Devotee : [Audio not clear] Like pain etc.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah. So, we feel pain, but actually the soul doesn’t feel, in one sense, it can’t get hurt. You cannot cut the Jiva, you cannot boil it, you cannot heat it, you cannot burn it, you cannot dry it up. You can’t do anything with the soul, with a material instrument. So, in one sense, it’s not hurt, but it feels like pain. Why? Because of ahankara. It identifies with the material body, and the material body has this reaction of pain, because of nervous system, etc., etc. So, in that sense, it’s false. But, nevertheless, the experience is real, and it goes to the Jiva.
So, happiness and distress, in one sense, is false, yes, but the Jiva experiences it, but it’s experienced because of ahankara and identification with body. So, no matter what we do in the material world, we cannot escape the illusory nature, because we’re covered by ahankara [Laughs], and then we relate everything to the body. So, then all our experiences are, in that sense, false. But, nevertheless, yes, we do have experiences. Matter cannot experience anything. Subtle body cannot really experience anything. The mind and the ego, they are only material elements. So, it’s only the Jiva that can experience, ultimately. But, it’s a false experience [Laughs].
2) But, Maharaj, as a devotee, do we have relationships with God? Do we have relationships with devotees? Do we have relationships with devotional service and so forth? Are those relationships real or false?
Well, the relationships we have with the Supreme Lord and devotees are on the spiritual level, those are real, because it’s relating the atma to the Supreme Lord. But, as far as we are doing sadhana, then we still have some covering of material energy, false ego, unless you get up to Bhava and Prema. So, therefore, there is some interference there. So, therefore, even though we’re devotees, the marriages always don’t work out [Laughs]. I think there’s problems with marriage and so many things, because of the problems with the false ego and all these different projections we may have.
Devotee : Maharaj, we are simply tolerating..
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: [Laughs] Well, we can tolerate it. Very good.
Devotee : So, it is the way of the experience here. Whatever material, spiritual and non-physical, and whatever?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So, actually, as far as the material world is concerned, there’s no perfect happiness, because everybody’s got a temporary body. Everybody disappears. So, it can’t be perfect in that way. So, the ultimate we can do is the perfect marriage or the perfect relationship, as a compromise [Laughs], some compromise. And then a bad relationship, where it’s extremely incompatible, whatever. But, if we can adapt and tolerate the situation, then we can have a normal relationship. It’s always a compromise in the material world. Nothing is perfect.
3) With regards to relationships Maharaj, we have the gross body and we have the subtle body. So, similarly, do we have gross material and subtle relationships? Like, for example, we go to the supermarket and we want to get a kilo of banana and a kilo of oranges. If you just give the person some money, they back it up and say, Thank you very much. That’s gross. You know, it’s a bodily transaction, right? But then, on the other hand, if you sort of, as they say, great minds think alike, if you think, Oh, well, I’m going to cook this and invite my friends over and we’re going to really enjoy the fruit salad. So, that sort of takes it on to the sort of subtle level.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, that’s emotional, emotional level.
Devotee : So,like most of the interactions that you have with people whom you think to be your friends or whatever are really basically ones that are between subtle bodies on the subtle level rather than the gross level ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, it’s a combination. We have the subtle level, definitely, but then there’s expectations on the gross level as well. That’s why a person becomes attracted to another person. That’s not subtle, that’s gross [Laughs]. That person is nice. That person is beautiful. This person is handsome. That’s the gross material aspect. So, there’s both aspects there, the gross physical aspect and then there’s the other higher aspect. So, it’s a combination of both. But if it’s more prominently in the gross level, it’s more likely to fail – that relationship [Laughs]. If you’ve got a combination with the subtle level, at least you can survive on the subtle level, then the gross level, even if there’s problems, it’s not such a big deal.
But if it’s only on the gross level, then the relationship won’t last for long because you always find a defect in the other person [Laughs]. Then the emotional level’s problem is because everybody’s projecting something, expectation on the other person, in terms of physical and in mental, the expectations from the other person, which may not be there in the other person, but we’re expecting it. So, that creates a problem also. So, the relationship, the emotional aspect becomes very complex in human society and human interactions because of that.
Devotee : Is it because the relationship is temporary ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but even the temporary one gets mixed up and we can’t even get [Laughs] even a normal relationship out of that because there’s so many problems in our projections.
4) [Audio not clear] Maharaj, you have shown the seven layers, which is a sort of dealt with by the Krishna consciousness. There are many devotees who are practicing this Krishna consciousness, but still we see there are many problems. Will it really solve problems? [Audio not clear]
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: It solves all your problems. Well, if they practice properly, then definitely the things will, all the problems disappear. So, the main problem is probably not being practiced properly and therefore we get problems popping up. So, if that unconditional love is expressed nicely, then automatically all the problems should dissipate. But if it’s not, then we’ll get problems. So, probably there is an external appearance of doing things, but then internally they’re not. So, that’ll be, that’s why the problem occurs and they don’t get relieved of their problems.
Devotee : It could be because of aparadhas ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Could be, yeah. Aparadhas could be there, not only from this lifetime, but from previous lifetimes, which caused them, that they cannot even do bhakti properly [Laughs]. They can try to do it, but then it doesn’t work. You know, they can’t express their… The atma cannot express anything for the Lord positively.
5) So, we understand that the mind, intelligence, false ego is situated originally in the region of the heart. But if you ask anybody, where is the mind, intelligence? Everybody says the head. So, how is it that we have the illusion that everything is situated in the head rather than the heart?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: [Laughs] Well, actually, if you look in Sanskrit literature, they don’t talk about the head at all [Laughs]. The citta is there, the intelligence is there, but they don’t really talk about the head. Usually it’s in the heart. Everything is there. So, maybe it’s just a cultural phenomena. Probably caused by over-emphasis on the left brain, intellectual development, logical development, which is associated with this chakra also. So, maybe that’s the reason why.
Of course, the subtle body is everywhere in one sense. So, even though we maybe speak of the mind and emotions being here, the subtle body with the mind intelligence, the ego is kind of spread out. It’s the whole body as well. So, it’s not just here. But we can say a lot of it is centered here in the heart region. Because in the subtle body you have the heart chakra. So, that’s where emotional relationships are established, in the heart chakra.
Devotee : I was thinking, I mean, we have the eyes, the tongue, the ears, all that.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: We have subtle ones also.
Devotee : [Audio not clear] and all are linked to head, is it because of that ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: We tend to think in terms of that, yeah, because of that.
Devotee : Thank you.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: [Laughs]
6) Hare Krishna Maharaj, thank you very much. So, I understand that in our relationship, material relationship, it’s pretty much about a projection of what we expect, our expectations. So, that means that we are pretty much an individual. We are a mind. And the solution is to establish a relationship with Krishna. So, we start from here, we get there. Here is 100% material, 0% spiritual. Here is 100% spiritual, 0% material. So, the gap in between is our journey. So, I understand the more we connect, the more we establish a relationship with Krishna, the more we detach from the illusion of the relationships and the material world. So, saying that, how do we cope with the necessity of commitment in some of our relationships?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Materially?
Devotee: Yeah, For example, I mean, the most common relationship people are struggling with is the conjugal relationship, because it’s more intimate. How do we cope with the concept to commit to something that we are aware that it’s pretty much an illusion, it’s temporary, it’s going to end anyway. So, it feels to me like, well, if I’m aware of that, the first problem, I just run away.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Laughs
Devotee: It’s an illusion. But what’s the point of trying? What’s the point of struggling?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: We have a spiritual relationship in that everything else is meaningless. But when we’re on the lower levels, we’re not that advanced to put that into practice. So, therefore, we still have the material aspects of us. So, this leads to expectations in material relationships, including marriage. So, we can’t really get rid of that at the very beginning stage. Later on, of course, we can. And therefore, we see even in the Varnashrama system, you go through the ashramas and you get grhastha life. Then, you finish with that, then you renounce it [Laughs]. At least, you renounce your children, go off to take vanaprastha. You get more renounced, you renounce your wife also. But that’s according to age also, and according to experience in family life that you later renounce it.
So, you’re not expected to get that detachment or be qualified for that detachment when you’re younger. Because we haven’t developed physically or spiritually. So, when we’re practicing spiritual life, then yes, we understand that the world is meaningless and the relationships are all maya, etc. But, we’re not out of that, those relationships yet [Laughs]. We’re not completely detached. So, therefore, the solution is, go on with the relationships. So, Lord Caitanya says, whether you’re a grhastha or as a renounced person living in the forest, you perform bhakti and you chant the holy name in either case. So, he’s not expecting everyone to completely renounce immediately. It is more or less expected if you’re going to be a Yogi or a Jnani, you have to do that in order to perfect the system.
But in bhakti, no [Laughs]. So, it’s like we can also use the senses. In Jnana and Yoga, you try to stop the senses. So, in bhakti yoga, we can use the senses, use the mind, use family life, and still we can advance. But, of course, we say the rider on that is the condition is that we have to engage everything directed towards Krishna. So, even we try to do the family life directed towards Krishna and then we’re safe.
7) We are facing all these problems because of not properly establishing our relationship with Krishna, is it because we stick to our material activities more and not endeavoring to grow spiritually by taking sannyasa etc ?
Yeah. Well, they can keep practicing and trying to, not just the externals, but internally, they have to keep trying to establish that affectionate relationship with Krishna. That’s all. So, in other words, the unconditional love is stronger than everything else to adjust everything. So, if you can work internally and try to develop that unconditional love, then that will help to solve all the problems. But I would suspect that probably they’re not doing that, doing the external, but they’re doing the internal. That’s why it’s not working. But it may be very difficult also for them to do that internal thing because they’re so affected, you know, psychologically, whatever, it’s very difficult for them to express unconditional love. But that’s actually what’s necessary.
8) Devotees if they have mental problems, do they simply rely on spiritual solutions or do they have to consult psychiatrist etc ?
Oh, psychologically, you mean? Well, I suppose you could do both. Just like we can say that, OK, surrender to the Lord, all your health problems are solved. But then we also go to the doctor [Laughs], go to the dentist and whatever like that, just to get immediate solution to some things like that. So, it’s not that we have to reject anything on the lower level. We can also use that.
9) Hare Krishna Maharaj, Maharaj if the relationships are all illusion and the perfect relationship can be established with Krishna only, and whatever we see here are perveted reflections of what we have with Krishna, so shall we not focus on much to maintain this relationship ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, of course, on the lower level, we can say, all rasas in the material world, which are relationships, are a perverted reflection of the spiritual relationships. So, when we relate in the material world, we’re actually trying to express that relationship with Krishna, but we don’t, we’re not accepting Krishna. So, we’re trying to reproduce that relationship in the material world. That’s all. So, it’s not going to work out, obviously. That’s on the lowest level.
Of course, if we become a devotee, we don’t have to give up our relationships. We don’t, in most cases. But we, at least, we have a perspective that they’re, try to make them in relation to Krishna somehow, that’s all. Make them a little more favorable. So, as I said, for family life, then you could raise a family in Krishna consciousness or something like that.
10) Disappointment in relationship is because we are not meeting their expectations ?
Yeah. You get disappointed in the relationship because they’re not responding like you expect them to respond [Laughs].
11) Maharaj Krishna is perfect, whatever comes out of him should also be perfect, but the relationships here seems imperfect, how to take this ?
Well, we can say that, yeah, all these experiences are there to make us learn something. And ultimately, it’s to make us learn that everything in the material world is faulty [Laughs], that we should get out of the material world and go to Krishna. In that sense, it’s perfect, It’s an education for us.
12) Maharaj, though we have variety of relationships with Krishna, but all are servants, they all are dasya in one sense, I want to ask with Krishna.. how to understand ?
Yeah, yeah. We say, nitya-krishna-dāsa, everybody’s the eternal servant of Krishna. So, our innate position is a little particle in relation to God, who is everything. So, that’s there. But, when God manifests His power, Aishwarya, then that dāsya becomes very strong and emphasized, because we are small and He’s very powerful. So, He manifests all those powers and that dāsya is an automatic, you can say, the natural mode for us.
With Krishna, because He emphasizes the sweetness, not the power, then that aishwarya decreases. As the madhurya increases, the sweetness increases, the power aspect decreases. So, with Krishna, then the power aspect disappears and the madhurya, or sweetness increases. And therefore, the intimacy of the relationship becomes a factor.
So, therefore, we’ll get sakhya, dāsya, vatsalya. And the dāsya becomes, it’s also there with Krishna, but in a different way afterwards. It’s a more intimate type of dāsya there and then the other relationships develop as equal or superior, even. Based on intimacy and sweetness. Yeah.
13) Maharaj can we say if we don’t expect anything from ayone we can avoid the problems in the material relationship?
Yeah, If we dn’t expect anything, then we’re not disturbed by any situation in the world [Laughs]. That’s what we call tolerance. And we tolerate everything in this material world. And we also forgive everything, even if they do things to us, we forgive it all, we’re not too attached to it.
And, of course, we can also say that’s in the the Siksastaka, āmāni nā mānadena (Verse 3), you know, we give respect to all and we don’t expect respect for ourself. And we’re humbler than a blade of grass and we’re tolerant than a tree. So that’s there in that particular verse we get the attitude, the ideal attitude of the devotee in the material world. He just tolerates the situation here and goes on with his bhakti.
Okay. Hare Krishna.