ŚB 11.10.5
yamān abhīkṣṇaṁ seveta
niyamān mat-paraḥ kvacit
mad-abhijñaṁ Guruṁ śāntam
upāsīta mad-ātmakam
Translation
One who has accepted Me as the Supreme goal of life should strictly observe the scriptural injunctions forbidding sinful activities and, as far as possible, should execute the injunctions prescribing minor regulative duties such as cleanliness. Ultimately, however, one should approach a bona fide spiritual master who is full in knowledge of Me as I am, who is peaceful, and who by spiritual elevation is not different from Me.
Purport
The word yamān refers to major regulative injunctions necessary for preserving one’s purity. In the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all bona fide members must give up eating meat, fish and eggs, and they must also avoid intoxication, gambling and illicit sex. The word abhīkṣṇam indicates that one cannot at any time perform such forbidden activities, even in difficult circumstances. The word niyamān refers to less obligatory injunctions, such as bathing three times daily. In certain difficult situations one may not bathe three times daily yet may still maintain one’s spiritual position. But if one engages in sinful, forbidden activities, even in difficult circumstances, there undoubtedly will be a spiritual falldown. Ultimately, as explained in Upadeśāmṛta, mere adherence to rules and regulations cannot give one spiritual perfection. One must approach a bona fide spiritual master who is mad-abhijñam, or in full knowledge of the personal form of Godhead. The word mat (“Me”) negates the possibility of a bona fide spiritual master having an impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth. Furthermore, the Guru must be in complete control of his senses; therefore he is called śānta, or peaceful. Because of being completely surrendered to the mission of the Lord, such a spiritual master is mad-ātmakam, or nondifferent from the Personality of Godhead.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj:
So the previous verse mentioned that even when one is doing all these karmas or karma yoga one should relate it to the Supreme Lord. And here yama and niyama are mentioned which are of course famous in the ashtanga yoga process. But they can of course be the main rules and regulations of the karma yoga system as well. And in any case, the person who is doing this is matpara he is thinking of the Supreme Lord. So as i mentioned previously, many of these rules of varanashram are meant for maintenance of the material body. And some are for general conduct.
So these are the rules yamas and niyamas mentioned here. But particularly the emphasis in this verse is to worship Guru. Who is described here by three adjectives – mad-abhijñaṁ, śāntam and mad-ātmakam, so these three terms are defining some of the qualities of the Guru. So this first term means he knows the Lord and this of course has a wide latitude of meaning. Similarly, we see statements like anyone who knows the Supreme Lord is qualified to be Guru. So one of course is, through faith we have knowledge of the Lord. Another is through scripture and by the knowledge of scripture that will also increase the faith and this is described in the nectar of devotion there is described that a person who is has komala sraddha, he has very little knowledge of scripture. A person who has a little more knowledge of scripture, he is called a madhyama. And though he doesn’t know everything at least his faith is steady. And one who has thorough knowledge of scripture or deep knowledge of scripture, his faith is very deep. So the knowledge and the faith may be various degrees. However, there is another higher knowledge as well. That is realization of the Lord. So of the three types of knowledge of the Lord, this is of course the best. It’s also the rarest. So at any case, we can call all these persons who know the Lord as qualified to be Guru.
And of course what is the purpose of being Guru. To lead the disciple to have knowledge of Krishna, faith in Krishna and realization of Krishna. And these devotees may be of various capacities to do that. So in the previous chapter we saw some Gurus were like the bumble bee or whatever [Laughs] so they are not even technically able to teach in the way we know, but they give some instruction. And then we have devotees who introduce us to Krishna consciousness, so they are also called Gurus. And then we have others who may give lots of teachings. So in this way we get different types of Gurus who give us knowledge. And of course one aspect of that knowledge we can say is the diksha Guru. So he gives knowledge of the Lord in the sense that he gives the diksha mantra. So in this way we get a wide variety of Gurus, who can be called as this verse says mad-abhijñaṁ. And one can take instructions and respect all of them.
So here it says one should worship the Guru. So this applies to the Guru, because the Guru gives knowledge. So the same principle applies even for material knowledge. So if you take a music teacher then you have to worship the Guru there as well or if you take a dance teacher, then you have to worship the dance teacher [Laughs]. So that’s a general concept to get knowledge you have to also give respect. But we know that getting spiritual knowledge is obviously higher than getting material knowledge. So we are a little more attentive to that principle. However as I said the Gurus may be of different levels of knowledge and realizations. So should we treat them all equally ? So the scriptures tell us that according to their level we will give less worship or more worship but we don’t avoid worship. So one gives more respect to the more elevated person. So in this way, the Guru has to be respected.
And of course this last term here is mad-ātmakam he is non different from me. So we have many similar statements and we see even in the Upanishads it says there that one should worship Guru like one worships the Lord. So at the same time, this does not mean that the Guru is God and as I said the Gurus may be at different levels, yet we worship them all as God like God [Laughs]. But at the same time we worship them at different levels [Laughs]. So it looks a little bit contradictory there. How can they all be worshipped equally, since they are all non different from God, but they are at different levels and we should give different levels of respect. So therefore when we talk about mad-ātmakam or the Guru is non different from God we should have a little understanding of what that means. We should not take it in a fanatical way. So that often seems to be the tendency.
So I accept a Guru I take Diksa and now my Guru is like God. So he is on the highest level. But as I said there is a whole gradation of Guru [Laughs]. So of course I mentioned the gradation in terms of knowledge. And of course we have less knowledge, more knowledge and then finally we get realization knowledge. So the diksha Guru is not different. They will be at different levels. [Not audible] And at the same time, the Guru is non-different from God [Laughs]. So the problem comes here God is, of course we do see that Krishna says Uddhava is me and I am Uddhava [Laughs] like this also. But we know that Jiva is always distinct from the Supreme Lord. So even the highest devotees maintain their separate existence.
So therefore mad-ātmakam doesn’t mean absolutely one [Laughs]. So but then we have various types of devotees from beginning devotees all the way up to people who have prema. So the devotees that have prema obviously on the highest level, so in that sense mad-ātmakam the Lord is under the control of the devotees at that stage. But the devotees on a lesser stage are not under the control, the Lord is not under the control of those devotees. So how can they be mad-ātmakam how are they one with the Lord? One way in which they are one with the Lord is, because they present the teachings of the Lord. So we know that the vedas are non-different from the Lord, Bhagavatam is non-different from the Lord, so if they present the scripture properly then in that sense they are giving us the Lord, so in that sense they are non-different. So in that sense all the different siksha Gurus from the one who gives first teachings to one who gives later teachings because they are giving teachings of scripture about the Lord in that sense they are non different from the Lord.
What about the diksha Guru? Is he more non different than the Siksha Guru? So the, how is he non different ? He is non different in the fact that he gives the deity mantra that is non different from the Lord also. Of course he also gives Siksa and that is also non-different but if he does, but even if he doesn’t give any teachings he just gives the mantra then the mantra is non-different from the Lord. So because he has the mantra, he has the Lord. But of course the objection maybe well we have the Lord is non-different from the holyname also. So that is very true. In fact it is more true [Laughs]. Lord is non different from the scriptures Lord is non different from the mantra and the Lord is non different from the name. However we usually emphasize the non difference of the Lord from his name more than anything else. It is much easier to get access to the name than to the mantra. so therefore it follows that anyone who gives out Hare Krishna is also mad-ātmakam, non different from the Lord [Laughs].
So therefore when we talk about the Guru is non different from the Lord, it goes many many people, involves many people. But as i said also then we also give degrees of respect according to the elevation of the particular devotee. So there are certain devotees that we have great certainty about. So these are the Acharyas. So we give very very special reverence to the acharyas like the Goswamis, Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami, Jiva Goswami, Gopala-bhatta Goswami, Raghunatha Goswami. And then within ISKCON we give the greatest respect to Srila Prabhupada. So though we do give all respects and also consider Diksha Gurus and Siksha Gurus non different from the Lord that respect is less than the respect we give to Srila Prabhupada. So we do have to have a proper understanding of how and why we worship Guru. And that way we can progress nicely.
Q & A
1.) Maharaj if you see in this sloka the Guru is being expected to have a very high quality, he should be like shantam, he should be like lord. But you mentioned that there are different levels but what we understand here Lord is expecting guru means you should have a particular level even in the translation the bonafide is mentioned, in the direct sloka bona fide is not mentioned only gurum. Can bona fide be understood as coming from a parampara, repeating his guru’s words ?
We can add the word bona fide in the sense authorized because where do we get our knowledge from, we have to get from guru where did he get his knowledge from [Laughs] he must have got it from another guru, he must have got it from another guru, so they all have to be authorized persons who are presenting the proper knowledge that’s all [Laughs].
Just as in Caitanya Caritamrta anyone who knows Krishna then he is guru [Laughs].
So the knowledge of Krishna can be of many many levels. So therefore the mad-abhijñaṁ for instance that term knowledge could go as I said from elementary knowledge all the way up until realization. And the word santam which means sense control etc goes along with that the higher the realization the more sense control. So therefore we can say the general qualities are given here, qualification of guru is given but then it’s got a wide range of meaning. So we have to be careful sometimes when we read these scriptural descriptions. And if we are to take them very literally then no one can be guru [Laughs]. You’ve got to be at the very highest level so then there is no body on the highest level, so then we don’t have gurus at all [Laughs].
Devotee : This is what the Ritviks argue, all the sastras are bonafide, it represents the Acharya. So we should give the highest respect to the Acharya, others are not.
We also agree with that we give the highest respect to the greatest acharyas but their problem is Diksha [Laughs]. So I guess their claim is that only Prabhupada can give diksha but then they should also say Prabhupada can only give Siksha also in which case nobody can teach anything and no one can give mantras [Laughs]. So nobody should speak just read Prabhupada’s books, finished [Laughs]. Now the main problem or the main reason for that assumption is because of the opposite assumption of many people. When they take diksha then they think my guru is like Prabhupada [Laughs]. But as I said the gurus are on all sorts of levels. So simply because you got a title Diksha guru does not make you more elevated spiritually.
Devotee : Can we say Diksha guru is title, given like that ?
In one sense it’s a post with a certain function and that function is to give mantra technically speaking. Now the other function of guru in general is to deliver but that could be the Siksha guru as well and giving teachings also and giving the holy name. So they all act for deliverance. So just by taking diksha does not mean you are delivered.
Devotee : Can a diksha guru claim the ownership of a disciple they say they are my disciples
In a sense yes because he has taken responsibility for them but then in another sense no because everything belongs to Krishna [Laughs]. And within ISKCON everything belongs to ISKCON [Laughs].
Devotee : Like in life membership preaching when a devotee makes a life member he says he is my life member, but you know the life member belongs to ISKCON.
[Laughs]
Devotee : [Not Clear]
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Well in that sense because the guru is responsible in one sense for his spiritual development so in that sense he says he is my disciple. But that only exists that sense of my disciple exists only in terms of spiritual instruction. It doesn’t apply to managerial decisions.
Devotee : [Not audible] full knowledge of Krishna full knowledge.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Well as I said there are all levels,
Devotee : Full knowledge means complete knowledge of Krishna.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Then that means realization which means then nobody is a guru [Laughs].
2.) What is the actual or factual technical difference in terms of degree of respect towards a guru and an Acharya.
Well it depends on the usage of the word Acharya because you can use that in a very general way for any guru or you can use it for the heads of the sampradaya or for the head of a movement or something like that so we use it in the sense of the founder of ISKCON for instance so then he has a very special position. So no one ever can take that position. We cannot rewrite history [Laughs].
3.) In family the grandfather is given the highest respect, after 2-3 generations the grandfather’s name is forgotten, his photos remain removed but I think that should not happen in ISKCON, the GBCs have taken a lot of steps to keep Prabhupada in the center position.
No it doesn’t change, it’s just they forget the older generations [Laughs]. But in spiritual movements generally like Ramanuja Acharya isn’t forgotten or Madhva is not forgotten so in that sense Srila Prabhupada will not be forgotten.
4.) In our sampradaya we find the significance in terms of Siksha always however what is the value of Diksha if there is no Siksha to disciples.
Well if they get the mantra they become qualified to worship a deity. But if they don’t get any information about how to use the mantra how to worship the deity it may also be useless but in some cases it may be effective as in the case of Gopa Kumar he got no instructions, he just got a mantra but he used it and he developed that way.
5.) Maharaj in this verse mad–atmakam, in terms of disciple who is giving in the right way he is giving a proper respect to Guru, but he appreciates Guru but not so much to Krishna, does it attract Krishna mercy more because Krishna also says my devotees are more worshipable than me in that sense.
Well that would also depend upon the elevation of that particular Guru.
Devotee : In terms of different level of appreciation or worship is given in terms of the degree, Maharaj is mentioning. However a Sadhaka considers himself so insignificant he sees that everyone is much more advanced and then he sees everybody nicely worshipable. So in that sense there is no difference because of his own position, Maharaj.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : That’s a general view but we see the Madhyamadhikari he treats people differently he avoids the demons, he doesn’t say they are all equal that’s the Uttamadhikari level [Laughs]. So the Madhyamadhikari sees differences among devotees also. And he has to treat them differently and that is the source of his advancement.
Devotee : We find in ISKCON we have like various Bhakti Vriksha leaders, temple presidents, general managers who sometimes act as Siksha Guru. So when the new devotee comes in relationship with the particular managers or Bhakti Vriksha leaders, they tend to take Diksha from the same guru where their Bhakti Vriksha leaders have taken. That trend is continuing, Oh my Siksha guru has taught me very nicely, because his Diksha guru has trained him very nicely, so let me take Diksha only from my Siksha guru’s guru.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : So that is also natural in one sense but at the same time it should not be forced that’s all.
6.) There is always Gurus identified with respect to giving knowledge of the Lord but we also see that in our society we just don’t have Guru we have so much managerial, managerial influence over devotees, when it comes to initiations or when it comes to so many other things and conduct and coming to temple and what to do and what not to do conducting festivals in fact so many rules and regulations are there what to do, what not to do so but that kind of thing how do we connect them that particular role of devotees with the statements of the scriptures because in scriptures we don’t have statements regarding the managers we have statements regarding Gurus.
We do have two separate identities or two separate systems, one is the managerial system which is the structure of ISKCON with you know Prabhupada, GBCs regional bodies, temple presidents etc, that’s the managerial structure with devotees in there, then we do have the spiritual structure with Diksha Gurus and Siksha Gurus. Now if the whole managerial structure was all hired people then we would have no problem in distinguishing the spiritual from the material, as in we see in the endowment system where they hire government officials to take care of the temples, so we are not offering respects to the manager of the temple there. But in our system all the managers are also devotees and the management itself is concerned with preaching also. So therefore the managers are also we can say more or less designated as Siksha Gurus [Laughs]. Some of them may even be Diksha Gurus.
7.) So Maharaj we see that we give so much importance in our society to our founder Acharya and we also see that this society actually practically cannot exist without a robust managerial system that’s why Srila Prabhupada instituted GBC. So when there are so many restrictions against criticizing the Guru why we don’t have a similar system of not criticizing the managers.
[Laughs] Well that’s the same as Sadhu Ninda as devotees in general [Laughs]. We have guror avajñā, we have Sadhu Ninda too.
Devotee : So can we say that once again when we are talking about Sadhu Ninda, again Sadhu, so he is not criticized for any devotional from a devotional point of view, but his managerial actions can be criticized which means even among a manager we separate the two parts.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Well yeah in managerial system the mistakes are made we have to in some sense criticize it or correct it or whatever. So no one is faultless so in that sense but that’s not considered aparadha.
Devotee : [Not audible]
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : So that’s a separate issue so then again if he points out the fault that is not considered to be Guru aparadha because he is criticizing the managerial role not the spiritual role.
Devotee : It will only be better if we separate the Guru and managerial role.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : It is easier that way.
Grantharaj Srimad Bhagavtam Ki.. Jai !! HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj Ki.. Jai !!