Srimad Bhagavatam – 7.7.47 | HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj | Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia | June 13, 2025
Impact of acting in ignorance:
So in this verse, actually, it’s talking about people acting out of ignorance, which is ‘avivekataḥ’. So ‘viveka’ means, discrimination or ability to discern, which is the propensity of buddhi or intelligence that we can distinguish one thing from another. This is how we give rise to analysis, logical processes, that is buddhi or viveka. But the real viveka, of course is to distinguish body from soul. So there has to be this distinction and this takes place in human form of life. Animals and plants do not distinguish between body and soul.
Essence of body / ‘deha’:
So in the first line of this verse, it actually makes this very clear, because it talks about the ‘dehi’ who performs activities and then gets different bodies. So ‘deha’ means a body, ‘dehi’ means the possessor of the body. Like we have ‘amsa’. ‘amsa’ means part, ‘amsi’ means source of the part. So Vishnu is ‘amsa’ and Krishna is the ‘amsi’ or Lord Caitanya is the ‘amsi’. Avatars are the ‘amsa’. So we have the ‘deha’ and we have the ‘dehi’, so the real essence of the body is actually the ‘dehi’, the possessor of the body. It’s called the ‘dehi’. So that distinction is not made in other forms of life.
How do one get this transcendental knowledge ?
So the question comes about, how do we get the knowledge in human form of life and as Prabhupad points out, generally people don’t know and they may act like animals. If they act like animals, they become animals again. So, if we don’t want to become an animal, then we should become a human being or a devata or we get liberation. How do we guarantee this? – By knowledge! And where do we get the knowledge from? Not by mental speculation. You can’t do it [Laughs], Prabhupad mentions that here. You can’t speculate about it. You have to get authoritative knowledge and where do we get authoritative knowledge from? – Scripture! and from?
Devotee 1: Spiritual master.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Guru. Which Guru ?
Devotee 1: śikṣā-guru
Devotee 2: dīkṣā-guru
Devotee 3: Both
3 famous verses which emphasis one to surrender to Guru to GET TRANSCENDENTAL KNOWLEDGE:
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So normally we have these things ‘tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet’ (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad : 1.2.12). One must approach a spiritual master in order to ‘tat vijna’, to get knowledge about Brahman or Krishna or Vishnu or whatever. Yeah? and ‘tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta; jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam’ (SB_11.3.21) – One should surrender to Guru – second famous quote. And then we have the third one, ‘tad viddhi praṇipātena..’ (BG – 4.34).
Devotee: paripraśnena sevayā’..
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah. So what you do ? The ‘ jñānina’ – those who have knowledge, teach you knowledge. So what does the Guru doing here? In all cases, he’s giving you knowledge. ‘ tad-vijñānārthaṁ’ (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.2.12) and ‘ jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam‘ (SB_11.3.21) – if you want to know the highest truth, you surrender to ‘tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta’ (SB_11.3.21) and the third one is, those in knowledge teach you knowledge (BG – 4.34). So therefore, we have to surrender to Guru.
How ISKCON devotees misunderstand this and why so:
So of course in ISKCON when we read this, ‘therefore I have to take a dīkṣā-guru’. But that’s not what it said here. It’s not talking about Diksha, it’s talking about getting knowledge. One who gives you knowledge – ‘tad-vijñānārthaṁ’ one who’s giving you knowledge. If he doesn’t give you the knowledge, then he wouldn’t be a Guru. In the second one ‘jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ’ (BG_4.34), those who have knowledge, see in tattva, they teach you. So the function here of the Guru is teaching!
So of course, another way of saying that, this refers to a śikṣā-guru, not dīkṣā-guru. Of course in ISKCON, when we talk about dīkṣā-guru, we’re assuming, he is going to give teachings and normally they give some teachings also. So that’s not a problem. But they may not be the dīkṣā-guru, but they can also give teachings and therefore they are śikṣā-guru. So they’re acting as Guru also. So we use this term ‘Guru’ and then we make that synonymous with ‘dīkṣā-guru’. But even that word dīkṣā-guru we conflate or we confuse it with the śikṣā-guru also. We make the dīkṣā-guru into the śikṣā-guru also. So nothing wrong with that, because usually the dīkṣā-guru also acts as a śikṣā-guru. Sometimes he doesn’t do that much shiksha. So what does he do? He gives dīkṣā at least.
What distinguishes diksha Guru from siksha Guru ?
And what is dīkṣā? What distinguishes dīkṣā from shiksha? What makes him a dīkṣā-guru not a śikṣā-guru? What’s the difference? What makes him a dīkṣā-guru not a śikṣā-guru?
Devotee: He gives beads.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: He gives beads? So that’s not [Laughs]. Actually if you look anywhere in scripture, giving beads is not part of dīkṣā really.
Devotee: Gives Mantra.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Which mantra?
Devotee 1: Gayathri Mantra.
Devotee 2: Krishna Mantra.
Devotee 3: Not audible
Devotee 4: We have to chant that Guru’s pranam mantra.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So dīkṣā -guru means one who gives the dīkṣā mantra. And a dīkṣā mantra is not exactly the Gayatri mantra. Gayatri actually, when we say Gayatri, we mean probably, Brahma Gayatri mantra. Well, that is also form of dīkṣā. That’s Vedic Gayatri. But that’s not our interest, our interest in dīkṣā is, to get a Vaishnava mantra. Of course, we can say that Brahma Gayatri is also Vaishnavi, because it refers to Vishnu. But the smartas say, no, it’s Shiva [Laughs] or something else or Ganesha or whatever. So it can apply to all sorts of entities, even Suryadev or whatever. So that’s a Vedic dīkṣā.
But that’s not when Lord Caitanya took dīkṣā, it doesn’t mean he took Vedic dīkṣā. Because he got that when he was five years old, Upanayanam, with Advaita Acharya he took Vedic dīkṣā. So that when we talk about Lord Caitanya or Nityananda getting dīkṣā, it means something else. So what do they get? They got a Krishna mantra. So Lord Caitanya got a Krishna mantra, when he was about sixteen years old, and the one with all those.. and he went to Gaya and he got a ten syllable mantra, Krishna mantra. So that was his dīkṣā. So then, he had a dīkṣā-guru, who gave him the mantra, who also gave him some teachings like chanting Hare Krsna.
What is diksha actually mean & which are all optionals in diksha ?
So therefore, when we talk about dīkṣā mantra, we’re talking about, for us atleast, we get a eighteen syllable dīkṣā mantra. Of course we get other mantras as well. Some of them are Gayatri mantras. So we do get a Vedic Gayatri mantra, that’s separate. We also get some other Gayatri mantras like Lord Caitanya.. and Krishna Gayatri, Kama Gayatri, which are called Gayatri. Because they have the same number of syllables as the Vedic Gayatri. But they’re Vaishnava Gayatri’s, so that’s separate. So therefore, the real dīkṣā is, getting a Krishna mantra. If you were to get the Kama Gayatri, but not the Krishna mantra, you still can’t worship the deity [Laughs]. So therefore, the mantra for worshiping the deity is the Krishna mantra, that’s all. Whether you get beads or not beads, doesn’t really matter.
Why siksha is important than diksha for those who aspire for Goloka ?
We see that Gopakumar in Brhad Bhagavatamrta, he got the mantra, the ten syllable mantra, from his Guru, who then disappeared. He just told him to chant this mantra. So then he chanted that mantra, ten syllable Krishna mantra and then he advanced to that. So all he got was a mantra, but that was dīkṣā. The Guru didn’t give him any shiksha, just dīkṣā mantra, so that is the function of the dīkṣā-guru. If he gives teachings, but he doesn’t give you that mantra, then he is not a dīkṣā-guru, according to description. Usually in our sampardaya, we emphasize both dīkṣā-guru and śikṣā-guru. So you can get dīkṣā without much teaching as you see in the case of Gopakumar. Later on, he got some teachings and he got teachings even from Narda Muni eventually. And because of that śikṣā later on, and through that shiksha, he actually advanced to Goloka.
What is emphasized by Caitanya Mahaprabhu & his followers – diksha / holy name ?
So, in our sampardaya, of course Lord Caitanya took Diksha, Advaita acharya took Diksha, Nityananda took Diksha, Gadhadhar took Diksha, most of the associates of Lord Caitanya took Diksha. Maybe Haridas Thakur did not. Somewhere it says Advaitacharya gave him Diksha or something like that. But it’s not very clear. But most got Diksha. But they NEVER EVER PUBLIZIED that. What do they publicize? Harinam [Laughs]. Chant the holy name !! So the emphasis in our sampardaya, as Lord Caitanya even he took Diksha, was not to publicize everybody has to take initiation, it is everybody to chant the holy name. And for chanting Hare Krishna, you don’t need Diksha. So that is clearly stated here in Caitanya Caritamrta. Naam does not depend on Diksha or [not clear]. So therefore, Lord Caitanya emphasized the chanting of Hare Krishna, not taking the Diksha Mantra.
What is the purpose of accepting Guru & which type of Guru?
Nevertheless, so we say here, here it says, we have to take a Guru and what is the Guru for? – For Knowledge !! So we can say, according to Caitanya Caritamrta, we don’t need Guru, we don’t need a dīkṣā-guru at least. We just chant Hare Krishna, Naama, because that’s what it says, that is true. But Lord Caitanya never denied knowledge or shiksha. So yes we emphasize chanting of the holy name and we don’t emphasize dīkṣā-guru and such, but there is always an emphasis in these Vedic Mantras, which two of them come from Vedas, one from Bhagavad Gita about accepting a Guru. So therefore, you must accept teachings from a Guru, in order to chant Hare Krishna properly without Nāmābhās. So therefore, along with the chanting of Hare Krishna, if you want to advance to Prema, you need some knowledge. And therefore, Prabhupada gave us books, so we could get some knowledge. So that is necessary. Knowledge is necessary, sampardaya of śikṣā-guru is necessary, not necessarily dīkṣā-guru. But at least the śikṣā-guru.. sampardaya of śikṣā-guru is necessary.
How to understand similar statements about ‘Guru’ going forward ?
So therefore, when we meet these statements here, we should not automatically assume, ‘therefore Shastra is saying, Prabhupada is saying, you must accept the dīkṣā-guru’. It’s not saying that!! If you look at these statements themselves and you go back to the Upanishads, that they come from [Laughs], you’ll see it’s referring to a śikṣā-guru, not a dīkṣā-guru at all, because you’re in the ashram and you’re learning from your Guru and he’s teaching you Jnana and therefore you should learn from your Guru in the ashram, who’s not your dīkṣā-guru, but he’s giving you Shiksha. So therefore, we have to distinguish this. So in this way emphasis is given upon Guru here and it’s very necessary, but we should understand that this is emphasis upon giving teachings.
How to respect diksha & siksha Guru’s?
And though we do accept Diksha, as a process, we also accept Shiksha as a process. Which is better? Which is superior? – Caitanya Caritamrta says, equal [Laughs] – you treat them equally. They’re expansions of Madana Mohan and Govindadev – dīkṣā-guru and śikṣā-guru. Therefore, you have to give them respect. Of course you could say, well, Gurus are on different levels, that’s true. Still, even Vishwanatha Chakravarti mentions, I think it’s the teachings on the Brahmachari worshipping the Guru in the ashram. So he worships him like God. In the commentary he says, yes, even he’s teaching you Karma Kanda, you treat him as God [Laughs]. So in other words, respect any teacher, Vedic teacher. Of course, even in school, traditionally, even you are Karmi [Laughs], teacher gets respected, especially in Asian countries, they get respected. So to get knowledge, you have to give respect. Even in university, you have to respect the teacher, that way you get the knowledge. So, in any case, if someone is teaching Vedas or Vaishnava philosophy, they get respect on whatever level they’re on. If they give the mantra or they give the teaching, they get respect.
How to properly respect various types of Guru’s according to their level of advancement?
But we do know, Vaishnavas could be on different levels, they could be on Nistha, Ruchi or asakti or Bhava, or Prema. And if we can detect that, then we will give more respect to a person on Bhava and Prema than we would give to a person on Nishtha, it’s obvious also. And that’s also accepted in scripture. So according to their amount of realization, then we would also give more or less respect. That is why, we also say, in ISKCON we should give most respect to Prabhupada and less respect to everybody else, because of that. So, there are different amounts of respect and it’s not that the Dikshu Guru gets more respect than the Shiksha Guru. If the Shiksha Guru has more realization, then we give him more respect. That is made clear, because Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati did not trace a Diksha line at all for us. He traced a Shiksha line. Because the Shiksha was more important than the Diksha [Laughs].
Why Bhakti Siddhanata Saraswathi Thakur traced siksha line than diksha ?
So therefore, we can trace a Diksha line from Prabhupad, Bhakti Siddhanta, Bhakti Siddhanata to Gaura Kirshore, Gaura Kishore to some babaji to some babji to some babji [Laughs], that way I think it gets to Advaitacharya, by Diksha, the Diksha Mantra. But we don’t even know about that. But somebody has traced off that line, it’s probably true. But we don’t even emphasize it at all, we’re tracing a Shiksha line, isn’t it. Why? because the Shiksha is more important than the Diksha, than giving the Mantra, in other words. Of course I said the dīkṣā-guru can give Shiksha, but the Diksha itself is just giving the Mantra.
Part of the reason why Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati did not want to trace a Diksha line, because many of the Diksha Gurus just gave the Diksha Mantra. They didn’t give teachings [Laughs]. So these became the caste Goswamis. The Brahmin gave Mantra to his disciple, probably his son [Laughs]. His son gives the Mantra, his son gives the Mantra.. So they were carrying on the Mantra. Nothing wrong with that, but they were just carrying on the Mantra without much teaching. So, we don’t consider that as so important. So what is important is, the teachings get passed on, of course the Mantra is there for deity worship. But more important is, the teachings. Therefore, the Shiksha line was emphasized by Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur.
Conclusion : What does the word ‘Guru’ and ‘diksha’ actually mean?
So therefore, when we see the word ‘Guru’ or ‘bonafide spiritual master’, it does not automatically mean that’s the ‘dīkṣā-guru’. Or when we say the word dīkṣā-guru we have to be careful what we mean by that. The real dīkṣā-guru is the one who gives you the Diksha Mantra at second initiation. He may not give you the Vedic Gayatri even [Laughs], which was so before Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur. The Vedic Mantra was given by your family Guru or the father. Lord Caitanya’s father gave him the Vedic Gayatri Mantra when he was five years old [Laughs]. So that’s the whole system before Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur. So even if you don’t get the Vedic Gayatri Mantra, but you get your Krishna Mantra, then you got Diksha.
Conclusion : Which is primary in sadhana – Diksha mantra or Hari naam ?
But the thing is that, we don’t really use the Diksha Mantra. We chant three times a day for five minutes or ten minutes. But it doesn’t mean it’s not our main sadhana, our main sadhana is, chanting Hare Krishna. So in that sense, the function of the dīkṣā-guru has less importance and more important is chanting Hare Krishna and the person who can give you the teachings, that’s it – śikṣā-guru.
Okay, any questions?
Q & A
1) Hare Krsna, Thank you Maharaj for the wonderful explanations. The dīkṣā-guru also said, unless you get Bhakti Sastri, you will not get Diksha. So that’s automatically receiving knowledge from your Diksha Guru, because you study Prabhupad books, you have to pass an exam and then you have to also practice for one year by chanting 16 rounds, follow 4 regulative principles, the temple president has to sign, authorize you are the bona fide candidate, for accepting initiation, so considering this, what do you say?
True. Yeah, some Diksha Gurus insist on that, some don’t [Laughs]. So some are giving shiksha, of course, he’s not teaching the Bhakti Shastri, somebody else is teaching the Bhakti Shastri, he gives the order. But at least the knowledge is being transferred that’s all. So yeah, there is knowledge through some Diksha Gurus, some may not initiate somebody, they are ok to give knowledge, but they are not aware.
Devotee: If I am a Guru, how dangerous.. [not clear]
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, you are going to teach it or is somebody else going to teach it?
Devotee: We are teaching to somebody else.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Okay, somebody else becomes the śikṣā-guru then [Laughs].
Devotee: Ok, is that wrong ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with that, but then, you can’t say the dīkṣā-guru is more important than the śikṣā-guru [Laughs].
2) Maharaj, this Diksha also the definition is ‘Divya-Jnana’ ?
Yeah, if we see that verse, that is quoted in Caitanya Caritamrta, also in.. I think Nectar of Instruction, it comes from Padma Purana, it’s first quoted in Bhakti Sandharba when Jiva Goswami talks about Diksha and that whole section is quoted in the Caitanya Caritamrta, along with those quotes there.
So yes, that is a series of two verses and it defines Diksha. So Diksha means giving divya jnana and destroying sin, and therefore it’s called Diksha. Which really means ‘dik’ for divya jnana and ‘sha’ for ‘shaya’ destruction of sin. ‘shaya’ means destruction. So it’s analyzing the word Diksha and giving it a meaning – giving divya jnana and ‘sha’ – destroying sin.
Okay so Diksha is a process which will give you knowledge and destroy sin. But we can also say, well, even if I give shiksha, the same thing happens. If Prabhupada doesn’t give dīkṣā, but he teaches you, then he is giving divya jnana, and your sin is getting destroyed. So then why dīkṣā is so special?
So, this verse comes with another verse after that. The next verse says, therefore, you go to the Guru, and follow the rules and regulations of scripture, and you get mantra from the Guru. And so, Jiva Goswami explains, in the mantra, that is your 18 syllable Krishna mantra, you get divya jnana. So, spiritual master gives you divya jnana, how does he give it? Through the mantra. The śikṣā-guru gives you divya jnana through the scripture, teaching Bhagavad Gita or whatever. So, that’s what makes dīkṣā. dīkṣā, not just giving transcendental knowledge, because everyone is giving transcendental knowledge who preaches, and they’re destroying sin in the process. Everybody chants Hare Krishna is giving knowledge and destroying sin. Hare Krishna destroys all sins. Ajamila, by accidental chant, destroys all sins.
So, the point of dīkṣā is, not that it destroys sin and whatever, and gives transcendental knowledge, it does, but it’s done through the mantra. Chanting Hare Krishna also does the same thing. If you chant Hare Krishna, you get Divya Jnana, Yes or no?
Devotee: Yes.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yes, you realize Krishna. Krishna is non different from the name, that’s Divya Jnana. Destroys sin, obviously. It’s the best way, more than mantras, is Harinam, destroying all your sins.
So, therefore, the only distinction of dīkṣā is through the mantra. So, the question will be, well, we’re just chanting Hare Krishna, why did we do the dīkṣā at all, why did we make the mantra at all? Why? Answer is, if you want to do Archana, you require that mantra to do deity worship. So, therefore, you use that mantra for deity worship. Well, we can say deity worship is not the main thing. No, Harinam is there. So, if you don’t want to do that, then you wouldn’t have to take dīkṣā. That would be the logical conclusion.
So, therefore, Jiva Goswami says there, that therefore, dīkṣā is for wealthy businessmen, who can spend all their money on worshiping deities. This is the way they get rid of their money. They use their money for a good cause [Laughs]. So, that’s the purpose of dīkṣā, so that wealthy businessmen can spend their money on deities. That’s his explanation.
3) Can we say the dīkṣā is connecting us to the Parampara, it is linking us to the Parampara ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Diksha Parampara ?
Devotee: Diksha ? okay.. or shiksha even. Otherwise, I can say [not clear], I didn’t take initiation from Prabhupada. He’s teaching me how to chant the Hare Krishna.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: That’s shiksha. That’s shiksha, not dīkṣā.
Devotee: Yeah, that’s shiksha, I’m saying.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: They’re talking about dīkṣā. Prabhupada is giving the mantra through a tape recorder. That’s.. That’s the problem. Nobody.. [not clear] Prabhupada’s giving shiksha to everybody in the future also. No problem. Prabhupada is a śikṣā-guru. Definitely.
Devotee: Can we say that dīkṣā-guru is also connecting us to the Parampara or not ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Through the dīkṣā program.
Devotee: Okay. Diksha or shiksha.. but I can have the Guru through the Parampara.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, but there’s two Paramparas.
Devotee: Okay. Diksha and shiksha, whatever.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah. But in our Sampradaya, Bhaktisiddhanta traces shiksha, not dīkṣā [Laughs].
Devotee: It doesn’t matter. I can’t say, that this and any of these gurus are going to be connected to the Parampara.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yes, but you’re connected to a dīkṣā Parampara.
Devotee: Okay. Diksha or Śikṣā.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: But if you want shiksha, and you get a śikṣā-guru, and you connect that way also.
Devotee: Well, what if i take initiation and I take śikṣā from Prabhupad ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, that’s also there. Nobody rejected to that. Nobody rejects that. In ISKCON nobody rejects that..
Devotee: But how you connect yourself to the Parampara? You say, I’m not connected to Prabhupada. Thats my Parampara.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, we see how the Parampara..[Laughs].. The Śikṣā parampara done in Bhagavad Gita, how it goes? Yeah ? How does it go? It goes, you know, Bhaktivinoda, Jagannatha das Babaji, Baladeva’s Goswami, 200 years previously. Narottama dasa Thakur, before that. And from Narottama dasa [Laughs] Thakur, it goes, it jumps.
Devotee: So that means very few after that ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Noooo. They’re saying mantra, the dīkṣā mantra.
Devotee: No, we say Śikṣā is very important, right ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Diksha, you get through a Guru, and you get a mantra. And they’re saying Prabhupada is the only dīkṣā-guru. He’s the one who gives the mantra to everybody.
Devotee: Which is true..
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: No. He doesn’t got the mantra. No, that’s not the mantra. The mantra is the deity mantra.
Devotee: But that is on the dīkṣā.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yes. So that’s the dīkṣā-guru.
Devotee: So what a dīkṣā-guru is for ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: For getting the mantra. For deity, worshipping the deity. That’s all. Which Bhaktisiddhanta didn’t consider so important, so he didn’t even trace it.
Devotee: But how can I say I’m connected to the Parampara through Śikṣā Guru ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yes
Devotee: Through śikṣā Guru or diksha Guru ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: You can have both.
Devotee: If i connect Prabhupad through Ritvik system ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: No, the rittvik is for dīkṣā only. We have no quarrel with them if Prabhupada is śikṣā Guru. The quarrel is that you’re taking Prabhupada as your dīkṣā-guru, and you do it 20, 50 years later, 200 years later. That’s all. And you’re getting a tape recording of Prabhupada. And then you’re taking dīkṣā-guru. Not śikṣā, not Hare Krishna.
Devotee: So we need a living Guru ? That’s what you say ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: There could be cases where you don’t. But normally at least we should have a living śikṣā-guru to give us the teaching properly, otherwise you can speculate. So people even speculate on Prabhupada’s words in Bhagavatam [Laughs].
Devotee: Yes.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So we need somebody to say this, it doesn’t mean that at all. It means this. So for that part, we need somebody.
Devotee: Also, some body have questions. That’s an important part..
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Of course. Everybody has questions. Some things are a little bit unclear. We don’t know. Even people who read Bhagavad-Gita, still they don’t understand what it means.
4) So, what’s the defect of Ritvik Maharaj ?
Oh, they’re saying that, Prabhupada is the dīkṣā-guru for everybody in the future. And he gives the mantra to everybody. And we say, no, the dīkṣā-guru is a living person who gives the mantra to his disciple, who gives it to his disciple, who gives it to his disciple. That’s wrong. Shiksha we don’t… That’s not the meaning.
Of course we can also say, shiksha more important than dīkṣā. So therefore, you can emphasize Prabhupada is your main Guru because he’s my śikṣā-guru. I have other shiksha gurus, but he’s my main Guru. And I may have a dīkṣā-guru, but I don’t give him as much respect as I give Prabhupada. You could say that. And nobody in ISKCON can object to that also.
5) Maharaj, Diksha Guru is only one, so it is easy to have a relationship and give full respect. Where as in Śikṣā Guru, there are so many Śikṣā Gurus, how much respect, how to give and whom to take, when to take ? There is little confusion Maharaj.
Yes. Yeah, so dīkṣā-guru, śikṣā-guru. There are one dīkṣā-guru, many shiksha gurus. Maybe, maybe not. You could have one śikṣā-guru. You may not have any śikṣā-guru. You could have one dīkṣā-guru. But simply because of one, doesn’t make them more important. That does not determine their spiritual status.Because I have one dīkṣā-guru that’s more important. He’s more advanced, therefore, than my five shiksha gurus, who are more advanced. It doesn’t mean that.
So we actually give emphasis to how they can contribute to spiritual advancement by giving teachings. So one who gives the most significant teachings, he would get the most respect. He could be the dīkṣā-guru. He could be the sīkṣā-guru. And if you think of Prabhupada, he’s giving the most respect. Fine, He is the śikṣā-guru. He’s your main Guru. And your other shiksha gurus, dīkṣā gurus are there. You give respect, but you give more respect to Prabhupada. Nobody’s going to object.
Devotee: Not clear.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Shiksha gurus. So yeah.
6) And there is a ceremony and everything for dīkṣā-guru to be fixed. He’s the right one, dīkṣā-guru. But anything is being determined for śikṣā-guru ?
There is no official ceremony as such. It’s up to the individual and the individual Guru to establish a relationship. There’s pluses and minuses with both. If we have a fixed ceremony, of course, the ceremony itself of dīkṣā was nothing part of it, in the Gaudia Sampardaya. It was giving the mantra, which may be a five-second affair. Nityananda got the mantra, give me a mantra. So the Guru whispered the mantra. Fine. Goodbye. That was it [Laughs]. Nobody saw it. Whatever. This happened. Five-second affair. Ten-second affair. Half a minute affair. Whatever. It was not a significant thing in mantras. It’s the same thing in Brhad Bhagavatamrta, Gopa Kumar got the mantra from the Guru. Then the Guru disappeared. Finished. It was not a significant ceremony as such. It was just giving the mantra. Just like nowadays, you can call somebody and say, I’ll give you some beads, chant Hare Krishna. Okay. Hare Krishna. So that may not be a significant ceremony even for dīkṣā.
In ISKCON, it becomes a big ceremony. But that has a plus and a minus. Plus, of course, it’s, yes, we should honor the dīkṣā-guru. Of course, most of it’s not dīkṣā, because it’s first initiation, not even second initiation. And that’s not really initiation. It’s partial initiation, because you’re not even getting the mantra until second initiation. So that’s one problem. But anyway, yeah, it establishes respect. The negative is that, the ceremony outweighs the function. And then we just go, it’s a ceremony. Now I’ve got a Guru. I don’t get any teachings from him. I don’t get anything from him. But I’m initiated. So it’s like we’ve got a little label on us. I’m initiated. You’re not initiated. So I’m better than you. So it’s like a label that becomes more materialistic to determine our status by dīkṣā versus non-dīkṣā. In the eyes of other people, and even in the eyes of the devotees themselves. So they could just use them as materialistic. Just like a brahmana is a brahmana, because it’s red and whatever. Like that. So it becomes materialistic. That’s the problem.
So with shiksha, no, they don’t have any specific ceremony. Of course, just like ISKCON makes first initiation into a big ceremony when there’s nothing scriptural about it. So you could make a ceremony for a śikṣā-guru also, which is basically what first initiation is. It’s like a shiksha ceremony, actually [Laughs]. Which is not in scripture, but it’s done. It was not there with Bhakti Siddhanta. He had no ceremony at all. Okay, you chant four rounds or whatever you want to chant. Follow some regulative principles. I give you a name. Here’s the beads. Finished. So not much ceremony even there. It’s what we call first initiation. With Bhakti Siddhanta, it’s not even called initiation at all. So anyway, there is some pluses and minuses with that idea of initiation.
And the idea of shiksha, of course, is that, I think it was not formalized, because the idea was mainly not a ceremony, but to give teachings, and you recognize somebody gives a significant teaching. So in other words, function over ceremony is more important. So that’s what is emphasized in the idea of shiksha. The negative aspect is not so much outside, but only within an organization like ISKCON, where it becomes a little ambiguous who is a śikṣā-guru for so-and-so person, whatever they recognize or not, so that becomes a little disputable [Laughs]. Who is qualified as a śikṣā-guru or whatever, and there are so many people teaching, so who is a real śikṣā-guru or whatever becomes a little ambiguous who is defined as a śikṣā-guru for an individual. That’s all.
Devotee: In ISKCON Bangalore initiation, do they give name also ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So name was not actually part of the Gaudiya. In large part, it was not part of the Gaudiya tradition of dīkṣā. Lord Caitanya did not get a name at dīkṣā. Nityananda did not get a name at dīkṣā.
Of course, in Pancharatric dīkṣā, there is a ceremony for giving name also. You get name, tilak, branding, mantra, and deity worship. Five, pancha samskaras. So Sri Sampradaya does that. Maybe mantra, I’m not sure. But in Gaudiya, it’s not much mentioned at all, and not everyone does. I think Vishwanath Chakravarti even didn’t get a name. Chakravarti is a family name. Vishwanath is, I think, birth name. Birth name? Yeah?
Devotee: Birth name.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, so he didn’t get a name at all. So it was not a compulsory part of Gaudiya Vaishnava dīkṣā, getting the mantra was main thing. So, of course, it is part of dīkṣā, as I said, and Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati gave names also, part of the dīkṣā ceremony. So what we call first initiation. I think Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati sometimes didn’t get names for first initiation. We didn’t call it first initiation. He didn’t get names sometimes. But Prabhupad did get names. So this is technically part of the dīkṣā, but not the most important part. The most important part of dīkṣā is the mantra, which was carried on. You don’t trace our [Laughs] Parampara by who gave you the name. You trace who gave you the mantra [Laughs]. If you don’t have the mantra, they don’t consider. You got a name, but you don’t have a mantra, you are not initiated. So, the mantra is the main part, not the name. But the name is part of dīkṣā. So in first initiation, you do get a name, so you got 20% dīkṣā. One of the five elements of dīkṣā is there [Laughs]. I think your main part, 40% of the second initiation is the mantra [Laughs].
Devotee: May be like Gaudia matt, better to name it as naam dan, means giving the holy name. And then people try to chant – 16 rounds, 64 rounds or whatever whether they can. And then if some of the people who are serious, they feel the sign, when they chant the name. They feel happy when they chant the name for one year. So maybe out of 1,000 people, maybe 100 will be initiated in the future if they are serious. You know, the idea is to give the name to everybody, so everybody can get some name. And if there are people who go deeper and want to get more knowledge, and become serious and follow you sincerely, then maybe they got initiated.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So that naamdhan is a rather liberal process to introduce people to the name. In ISKCON, it’s a little bit different because in order to get there, first initiation, you have to chant 16 rounds already and follow regular principles and know the Bhagavad Gita and that, so you’re already highly qualified. So it’s not introduction to the name. You’ve done that long before, a few years before. So already it’s surpassed that in one sense. But namdana is like giving out everybody, which is what they would do in Gaudia matt for instance.
Devotees: HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj Ki.. Jai !!