Srimad Bhagavatam – 11.10.10 | HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj | ISKCON Chennai | 29 March 2021
Oṁ Namo Bhagavate Vāsudevāya
Oṁ Namo Bhagavate Vāsudevāya
Oṁ Namo Bhagavate Vāsudevāya
nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale
śrīmate bhaktivedānta-svāmin iti nāmine
namas te sārasvate deve gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe
nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe
śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
Reading from Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 11 Chapter 10 Verse 10.
ŚB 11.10.10
yo ’sau guṇair viracito
deho ’yaṁ puruṣasya hi
saṁsāras tan-nibandho ’yaṁ
puṁso vidyā cchid ātmanaḥ
Synonyms
yaḥ — which; asau — that(subtle body); guṇaiḥ — by the material modes; viracitaḥ — constructed; dehaḥ — the body; ayam — this (gross body); puruṣasya — of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; hi — certainly; saṁsāraḥ — material existence; tat-nibandhaḥ — tied to that; ayam — this; puṁsaḥ — of the living entity; vidyā — knowledge; chit — that which cuts apart; ātmanaḥ — of the soul.
Translation
The subtle and gross material bodies are created by the material modes of nature, which expand from the potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Material existence occurs when the living entity falsely accepts the qualities of the gross and subtle bodies as being his own factual nature. This illusory state, however, can be destroyed by real knowledge.
Purport
Regarding the analogy comparing fire and its fuel to the soul and the body, one may argue that to some extent fire is dependent upon its fuel and cannot exist without it. Since we do not experience the existence of fire independent of fuel, one may therefore still question how it is possible for the living entity to exist separately from the body, become covered by it and eventually become free from it. Only through the Supreme Personality of Godhead’s knowledge potency (vidyā) can one clearly understand the nature of the living entity. By vidyā, or real knowledge, one may cut material existence to pieces and even in this lifetime experience spiritual reality. According to Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, our material existence is an artificial imposition. By the Lord’s inconceivable potency of nescience, the qualities of gross and subtle material forms are psychologically imposed upon the living being, and because of misidentification with the body, the living entity initiates a series of illusory activities. As explained in the previous chapter, the present material body is like a tree that produces the karmic seed of the next body. However, this cycle of ignorance can be cut to pieces by the transcendental knowledge explained by the Lord.
Unfortunately, the conditioned souls, being inimical to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, do not accept the perfect knowledge spoken by the Lord. Instead they remain absorbed in gross and subtle illusion. But if the living entity accepts the Lord’s knowledge, his whole situation can be rectified, and he can return to his original, eternal, blissful life of perfect knowledge in the direct association of the Lord.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So this verse explains the process by which ignorance covers the living entity. People in the material world do not distinguish between the soul and the body. But then the scripture tells us, you are not the body you are the soul. What is the relationship between the body and the soul? And why does the soul have to have a body at all? So the example of the fire and the fuel was given. And one could argue that the fire is dependent upon the fuel. So in the material world that is true. So because it is a material example, it does not fit exactly with the relationship between the body and the soul. So certainly, as long as we are in the material world, the soul must express itself through material body. Why do we get body after body? Because that atma wants to express itself in terms of material enjoyment. So as far as material existence is concerned, there is some sort of dependence of the atma upon the body. However, the point of fire and wood is to show that actually the two are quite different. So everybody makes a distinction between fire and wood. So we should make a distinction between atma and material body. However, the relationship is quite we say complex. There are many factors involved in this relationship. And in fact we have not only a gross body, we have a subtle body. So both of these are material. The material body is given up at death, but the subtle body is not given up at death. So then we could argue, well the subtle body and the soul are the same thing. But scripture also denies that. If one gets liberation, one must give up the subtle body also. So though the subtle body looks almost like it’s eternal because it goes with the atma birth after birth, actually it is also temporary.
Brahma has a material body which lasts a hundred of Brahma’s years, which is a very long time, but it’s also material. So the gross body and the subtle body are both different from the atma. But there is a bondage between the soul and those two bodies. And that bondage is very very strong. It becomes very difficult for the jiva to break that relationship. Of course, when we die, we break the relationship with our gross material body. But by the law of karma then we accept another gross body. So the process of liberation, getting free from subtle body and gross body is very very difficult. So we can say, well if it’s so difficult to get rid of it, why do we bother? Why not just accept that we have a gross and subtle body and then enjoy [Laughs]? So this is the conclusion of most living entities. So the animals and the plants, they don’t distinguish anything. Among the human beings, those who are in ignorance also do not distinguish. However, the Lord arranges the material world so that there is almost a natural way in which you become aware of the distinction between body and soul.
So it is described that maya has two functions. One is avidya or ignorance, the other is vidya, knowledge. Usually we are aware of the ignorance function. So this covers up the atma and hides his characteristics. And this causes him to identify with a material body. So that is one function of maya. But then the other function is vidya, knowledge. So we cannot condemn maya. So maya also gives us knowledge. Not complete knowledge, but some knowledge.
So that vidya is the characteristic of sattvaguna. So if one is firmly situated in sattvaguna, then naturally one begins to develop an awareness that one is not the body, one is the soul. Another quality of sattvaguna also is that, in sattvaguna one has faith in scriptures. So if we go to the scriptures, then very quickly we can reinforce this idea that I am not the body, but I am the soul. So in this way, maya is not completely evil. It has a chance for the jiva to get out of the material world. So this is the arrangement of the Supreme Lord for the jivas in the material world.
The Lord makes a big prison house full of ignorance. But he also provides a little door there called as knowledge and you can get out that door. Of course, we also know that, of all the human beings not so many are in sattvaguna. Most are in tamoguna and rajoguna. So we can think of a big prison and on the first bottom floor we have huge, huge area with all the people in tamoguna [Laughs]. On the next storey up, there is a smaller room and that’s the people in rajoguna. And on top of that, there is another much smaller room that’s the sattva guna. And in that top most room then there is a door you can get out [Laughs]. But most of the people are in that bottom place in tamoguna, so they don’t understand that there is a way you can get out. And the only way they can get to that topmost storey is if they change their qualities. But in most cases it is very difficult for the jiva to change his qualities. He is very attached to his qualities. So people in tamoguna are very very attached to their tamoguna qualities. It is very difficult for them to give up all their bad habits. So in sattvaguna, people may have bad habits but they can give them up quite easily. So therefore, there is a way to get out of the material world built into the material world itself but not many people take advantage of that. Of course, the varnashrama system makes an arrangement by which the people in the lowest room, that is in tamoguna, they gradually get purified and they end up in rajoguna then they get to sattvaguna. But at the same time we see that, the amount of people who get up to sattvaguna is few. So even if we have that system of purification, it is very slow and not all people take advantage of it [Laughs]. If everybody automatically progressed, then the same number of people would be in sattvaguna as in tamoguna because gradually they would progress upwards [Laughs]. So it is quite difficult for people to get up to that status through that varnashrama system. Nevertheless there is a chance for the people in the material world to get out and maya devi herself supplies that method. And the process of jnana yoga also arises in sattvaguna. However, that process also is said to be difficult. So yes, there is a way you can get out of maya through maya itself but it is also a little difficult. So this shows how difficult it is to break this relationship of the jiva to the material bodies. So taking that into account, we can say, well, the Lord is not so compassionate to the jivas if he makes it so difficult. But of course, we can also say it is not the Lord’s fault, it’s the jiva’s fault. The jivas don’t want to get out of the prison. If they wanted to get out, then of course, they could get up to the sattvaguna and get out [Laughs].
So in any case the Lord also has another method. So He is merciful. And besides the method of using maya itself with vidya to get out, then He has another process. So this is a method that surpasses the gunas. The process of bhakti is not in sattvaguna, it is transcendental. And it is not a difficult process like jnana yoga. And it does not have to wait for people to come up to sattvaguna before they manifest vidya. And for this reason Krishna recommends the process of bhakti yoga in Bhagavad Gita. And of course, the Bhagavatam also is recommending the process of bhakti. So the only requirement here is that, to start this process, one has to recognize this Bhagavan existence of the Supreme Lord as Bhagavan. Once we accept that, then the process becomes easy. So the whole Bhagavatam, it’s purpose is to convince everybody of the existence of Bhagavan. So when we accept the existence of Bhagavan, that means we have faith. When we have faith, then we begin the process of bhakti. When we get the process of bhakti, then we destroy this connection of the jiva with the gross and subtle bodies.
Q & A :
1.) Maharaj, in translation it’s mentioned that, material existence occurs when the living entity falsely accepts the qualities of the gross and subtle bodies as being his own factual nature. We see in the material world, the child learns bad and good habits from the circumstances, association, school or the parents. But the question here is, jiva where did it learn the bad habits? That means the material world should have, had good and bad qualities, jiva chose, as we say always it’s marginal. There should be some impetus for it to learn the bad habits to go against the Lord. How to understand this?
Parents in previous life and previous life and previous life [Laughs]. When the person grows up of course, they don’t bother so much about parents but they are influenced by environment, friends, associates, etc. So according to their sanga who they associate with, they also develop good or bad habits. Of course, all along the jiva is there and he still has his choice. And according to how strong the jiva’s attachment is to material enjoyment, then he will make different types of choices.
2.) Maharaj, you said, the primary function of maya, is it to get them to that particular door of all the living entities? Or is it to put, suppress every soul into the lower platform? What is its primary goal?
Well, as I said it offers both things avidya and vidya. So the maya does not hate the living entities [Laughs]. And whatever happens is because of their law of karma. So according to the ignorance, they do sinful activities and according to the sinful activities, then they get karma. So whatever misery the jiva experiences in the material world is not the responsibility of maya, it is the responsibility of the jiva.
3.) Maharaj, the atma being spiritual in nature and material being foreign to it, how come this atma is attracted to the material aspects?
The jiva in ignorance thinks it should be an independent enjoyer. So the only way it can do that is to get material objects, identify with the material body and try to enjoy the material objects.
4.) Sadhakas and the devotees are ideally supposed to have every relationship on the spiritual platform. How to become fixed for a sadhaka to be fixed on the spiritual platform at all times?
So it cannot be immediate because when one starts the process of bhakti, he still has a lot of material attachments. Through the process of bhakti of course, those material tendencies decrease. But they are only completely eradicated if we get to the topmost level. So atleast you should strive for a level where those material attractions do not disturb our bhakti. That is the stage of nistha.
5.) Without taking sanga of the devotees, is it not possible to stay in devotion?
Well, generally that is recommended, there may be circumstances where there is no association. However, that’s the quickest way of advancement.
6.) Maharaj, request you to explain what comes after getting out of the material world. What is life after getting out of material conception?
If we get out of material conception, that’s all, then that’s what happens, we get liberation. We are out of the jail but we don’t do anything. So the only way we go further is if we practice bhakti. So if we do the process of bhakti, not only we get out of the prison but we get into the spiritual world.
7.) Does the anartha nivrtti not get cleared till bhava stage or prema stage? Is the bhakti steps not sequential, is it parallel? Kindly clarify.
So anartha nivrtti is a continuous process from the very beginning up until bhava and even in bhava, there is considered to be some obstacles. And that distinguishes it from prema.
8.) When faith comes, we say little bit of bhakti shakti manifests in the devotee. But still the devotee have anarthas as lust, anger etc. Then how bhakti devi manifests on a place where bad elements exist?
So we can say that the jiva has two tendencies. One is to serve Krishna and one is not to serve Krishna. So when we have faith, then we have a little tendency to serve Krishna but still we have a tendency not to serve Krishna. If Krishna would demand 100%, desire to serve Krishna and nothing else, then no one would ever achieve [Laughs] that stage [Laughs]. So He allows the jiva to start even though he has so many material attachments. But as the bhakti grows, then those material tendencies decrease. Certainly those material tendencies are not favorable for bhakti. And the process of bhakti will destroy them. But it takes some time.
9.) Can we understand that the material tendencies show that the devotee’s advancement is limited?
Well, we can say that the more material attachments that a devotee displays, the less advanced he is.
10.) For sadhakas we say that, we should always depend on Krishna and that His plan is always the best. But when we go through some material suffering, it also means that we are facing our karma. So as sadhakas, how do we see that material suffering or some challenges we face in our life?
A devotee takes all of that as the mercy of the Lord. And he understands that suffering is not the creation of the Lord, it’s created by himself. But in spite of the suffering, that devotee continues doing service to the Lord. And if he does so, then the Lord is merciful to him.
11.) For one who is practicing bhakti, is it possible for him to come back to material plane?
Generally, if he is a sincere devotee, even if he does fall off from his position, still that bhakti will continue in the future life.
Devotees: Grantharaj Srimad Bhagavatam ki jai!!! HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj ki jai!!! Srila Prabhupada ki jai!!! Nitai Gaura premanande Hari Haribol!!!