Srīmad Bhāgavatam – 11.11.8 | HH Bhānu Swāmī Mahāraj | ISKCON Chennai | April 30, 2021
nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale
śrīmate bhaktivedānta-svāmin iti nāmine
namas te sārasvate deve gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe
nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe
śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
Reading from śrīmad bhāgavatam Canto 11 Chapter 11 Verse 8.
deha-stho ’pi na deha-stho
vidvān svapnād yathotthitaḥ
adeha-stho ’pi deha-sthaḥ
kumatiḥ svapna-dṛg yathā
Synonyms
deha — in the material body; sthaḥ — situated; api — although; na — not; deha — in the body; sthaḥ — situated; vidvān — an enlightened person; svapnāt — from a dream; yathā — just as; utthitaḥ — having risen; adeha — not in the body; sthaḥ — situated; api — although; deha — in the body; sthaḥ — situated; ku–matiḥ — a foolish person; svapna — a dream; dṛk — seeing; yathā — just as.
Translation
One who is enlightened in self-realization, although living within the material body, sees himself as transcendental to the body, just as one who has arisen from a dream gives up identification with the dream body. A foolish person, however, although not identical with his material body but transcendental to it, thinks himself to be situated in the body, just as one who is dreaming sees himself as situated in an imaginary body.
Purport
In Lord Kṛṣṇa’s discussion of the different characteristics of liberated and conditioned souls, the Lord first clarified the distinction between the eternally liberated Personality of Godhead and the marginal potency, the innumerable jīvas, who are sometimes conditioned and sometimes liberated. In this and the next nine verses, the Lord describes the different symptoms of liberated and conditioned Jīva souls. In a dream one sees oneself in an imaginary body, but upon waking one gives up all identification with that body. Similarly, one who has awakened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness no longer identifies with the gross or subtle material bodies, nor does he become affected by the happiness and distress of material life. On the other hand, a foolish person (kumati) does not awaken from the dream of material existence and is afflicted with innumerable problems due to false identification with the gross and subtle material bodies. One should become situated in one’s eternal spiritual identity (nitya-svarūpa). By properly identifying oneself as the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, one becomes relieved of his false material identity, and therefore the miseries of illusory existence immediately cease, just as the anxiety of a troublesome dream ceases as soon as one awakens to his normal, pleasant surroundings. It should be understood, however, that the analogy of awakening from a dream can never be applied to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is never in illusion. The Lord is eternally awake and enlightened in His own unique category called viṣṇu-tattva. Such knowledge is easily understood by one who is vidvān, or enlightened in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
HH Bhānu Swāmī Mahārāj
Previously there were discussion on the nitya muktas. And of course the badhha Jīva is completely different from the Lord. But now here there is discussion how the nitya mukta Jiva and the nitya baddha Jiva differs.
One who is in the body, but is not conscious of the body is the mukta jīva. So that describes the first line, “though situated n body he is not situated in body”. And why is it? because he is vidvān- he has knowledge. He does not identify with material body even though he is in the body. And the example is given of waking up from dream. In the dream state, we identify with a dream body. When we wake up we no longer identify with that body. Of course we do have people who never wake up – they are in coma. So people without knowledge, they identify with their body like a person in a dream and they never wake up from that dream.
If a Jīva gets proper knowledge, then he can wake up and if he does not have that knowledge, then he stays in the dream. So, in the waking state, though he does have a material body, the person in knowledge does not identify with that body. He understands that the ātmā is different from the body, just as a person in waking state understands he is not the person in the dream. So, this is the position of a person in knowledge. And this of course, to get this knowledge is encouraged in the Vedic literature.
The other type of person is situated in the body, but he identifies with it, though he is not the body. So, this person is considered to be foolish or kumati. He identifies with his body, just as a person in the dream identifies with his dream body and he never wakes up from that dream. So, this person is foolish – He has no knowledge.
Of course, this analogy is not perfect. Because we know that even if we are in the waking state, we are still in illusion. So even if we wake up from a dream and understand that was a dream and I am not the dream body, we are still in illusion because we still think we are the body. We don’t identify with the dream body, but we identify with the body in waking state. So this waking state is also considered to be like the dream. And when we wake up from this dream, then we understand we are not the body. So, the point made here is that in order to get out of this situation of illusion, we need proper knowledge. And this knowledge is a first step in progressing in spiritual life.
We find that in Bhāgavatam, even the demons will preach this that you are not the body. Don’t lament for your material body. However, the demons will use this knowledge for their own purposes. We see that ultimately, though Hiraṇyakaśipu preaches that you are not the body to pacify the wives of Hiraṇyākṣa, still he believes he is the body. And therefore he tries to live eternally the material body. So, though people may have this knowledge, they may not utilize it properly.
So the knowledge is good, but we also have to use it in the proper way. Because people can misuse the knowledge, it is also considered to be subject to qualification. It is not given to everyone. And it is considered to be secret knowledge. So, it definitely requires some qualification to use this knowledge properly for spiritual life. At the same time, in the Bhagavad Gītā, though Kṛṣṇa talks about this knowledge also, he also says that the greatest secret is something else. Though this knowledge is rahasya or secret, we have the highest secret- uttama rahasya, which is supreme Lord. We have two levels of spiritual knowledge. Though it is good to progress at least to the first stage, it is better to get to the second stage.
The problem with the people who come to the first stage, that is, they realize Ātmā and Brahman, they reject the second stage. Those persons are described in Bhāgavatam. They think they are liberated. And with great difficulty they come to that position, but they disrespect the Lord. Why? Because they have not associated with devotees. And they think they got the Rahasya or the secret knowledge as the highest. Consequently, because of their neglect of the Lord, they fall from their position.
So, though that position of liberation and understanding of the body is good, it can also lead to indifference to the Lord. One must always remain very humble while progressing in spiritual life. If one becomes proud in the stage of liberation, he will not listen to the statements that tell us that higher knowledge or the highest secret is there in the form of Supreme Lord
So, we see that in Bhagavad Gītā itself, Kṛṣṇa discusses these two stages. So, in Chapter 2, Kṛṣṇa deals with the difference between the body and the soul. And he only indirectly mentions Supreme Lord. However, in Chapter 7-12, very clearly, he gives us another level of knowledge. So in Chapter 7-12, we have a very complete discussion of Supreme Lord. Once this is established, he concludes the Bhagavad Gītā with the same knowledge. So, in the 18th chapter itself, again he repeats the same knowledge. So yes, it is good to progress you are not the body and understand your Ātmā, but it is better to understand that there is also a Paramātmā, Supreme Ātmā. And then superior to that is knowledge of Bhagavān.
So only a person who gets the proper guidance and remains humble, will be able to accept all of these three stages. Therefore, at the beginning of study, the emphasis is upon surrender. The first step in approaching someone with spiritual knowledge is Praṇipat. One has to offer respects. We must be willing to accept the truth without distortion. So, with that attitude, we have a qualification for knowledge.
In this verse here, we have a discussion on these types of Jīva. One is in the liberated state. He does not believe he is a material body. There are two types of these Jīvas that don’t believe they are the body. There is the eternally liberated, Nityamukta, who associates with the Lord in the spiritual world and never falls into illusion of the material world. And then there is Jīva who was badhha – in the material world under illusion, but through the process of bhakti, he transcends the world and he also becomes liberated. Such a person is called sādhana-siddha. He reaches that perfect state. The other person is called nitya-siddha. He is always in a perfect state. He doesn’t have to do sadhana to get there. And the one who was in the material world and achieved the spiritual world, we can also call him a baddhamukta. He was in a state of bondage and he got liberated.
Therefore, there are two types of Jīvas in the spiritual world. nityasiddhas and sādhanasiddhas. But, of course, in the spiritual world, we don’t distinguish between them.
One person in the spiritual world, he never looks at another associate of the Lord and says, ‘Ah, you’re a sādhanasiddha and I’m a nityasiddha’. They become non-different. But the terminology is used to distinguish them to show that some Jīvas never fall in the material world and some are in the material world and they attain the spiritual world.
So, the nitya-siddhas never were in a state of bondage and in the future, they will never be in bondage. The sādhana-siddhas were in a state of bondage, but once they’re in the spiritual world, they never fall in the material world again. So, the only difference is the past. In the spiritual world, there is no past. So, therefore, a Jīva who came from the material world, even though he came from the material world, nobody sees him as someone coming from the material world. They think of him as being eternally in the spiritual world.
The Jīva in the material world identified with the body, he is called badhha, in bondage or in a conditioned state. So, this is also said to be without beginning. However, if one does sādhana, then one becomes sādhana-siddha. Therefore, that bondage is not eternal in the future. But it is the choice of the Jīva, whether he wants to stay in the material world or whether he wants to get out of the material world.
However, once a Jīva goes to the spiritual world then, he doesn’t fall from that. Why? Because of the promise of the Lord. He makes an arrangement by enforcing the Jīva with the tip of his cit śakti. So, therefore, that Jīva in the spiritual world is somewhat different from the Jīva in the material world. They are very similar- they are both taṭastha śaktī, and even the Nitya Siddhas are taṭastha śakti and everybody in the spiritual world has this additional cit śaktī. Jīvas in the material world, do not have the cit śaktī. Here they are covered by the Maya Shakti.
Q&A
1.) Mahārāj, you did mention about the demon like Hiraṇyakaśipu who was preaching about the soul at the same time he was so much attached to his body and he wanted to remain in the body. It also appears that the practicing devotees and sādhakas are also in this kind of category, Mahārāj, because they are also attached too much attached to the fearful of the body’s existence and things like that.
So, the difference between the devotees with that knowledge and demons is that the demons really don’t believe it, but they use that knowledge for their own purpose. The devotees may not be fixed in that knowledge, but at least they don’t misuse that.
2.) In Yesterday’s class you said that Supreme Lord told Lord śiva to preach māyāvāda and misled people as everybody is not qualified for real knowledge. But when the same Supreme Lord appeared as śrī caitanya mahāprabhu, he distributed kṛṣṇa prema which is the highest knowledge even to unqualified people. How do we properly understand this?
The Lord by his mercy does different things at diff times. Thus he has different processes in different yugas. And similarly, different forms of the Lord are worshipped at different times. And in fact, Kṛṣṇa only comes once in the day of Brahma. Some people are not worshipping and similarly, Lord Caitanya only comes once in the day of Brahma. Throughout the day of Brahma, usually the Jīvas do not get the mercy of Kṛṣṇa or Lord Kṛṣṇa.
So, by his mercy, then at a certain period, in the 28th cycle of the Vaivasvata manvantara, in the dwāpara Yuga and Kali Yuga, we get the appearance of Kṛṣṇa and Caitanya. So, in other words, the Lord is very merciful, but then he shows that mercy in different ways at different times. So, he shows mercy as Buddha to some people, as śiva or śankarācharya to others and then, of course, he shows various avataras such as caitanya mahāprabhu to others.
3.) Kali Yuga people are very sinful by nature and even attaining the first level of knowledge, which is spirit and matter, is very difficult. Attaining the second level of knowledge, the Supreme Lord looks even more remote for such sinful people. How do we understand this helpless situation of the Jīva in Kali Yuga?
To help the people of Kali Yuga, we have the process of nāma saṅkīrtanam and through chanting the holy name, we can get all knowledge.
Devotee: But Gurumahāraj, without faith, how can one start chanting also, as knowledge of Lord is basic and important.
HH Bhānu swāmī mahāraj: So, they can just hear the name.
4.) We have heard that the word Ātmā refers to body, mind and soul under different contexts. Therefore, does it mean that the devotee must identify himself with the body, mind and soul while serving the Lord under different circumstances? For instance, a devotee has to take care of his body, mind and soul in order to serve the Lord properly in the material world.
We can do that, but as a devotee, if we are going to take care of the body, take care of the family, etc., he has to realise that body is not the soul.
5.) If a Sadhana Siddha becomes a Gopī in the spiritual world, Can he or she give the same pleasure to Kṛṣṇa matching the nitya siddha gopīs? As nitya siddha gopīs belong to the hlādinī śaktī whereas sādhana-siddha belongs to the taṭastha śaktī. Will they be able to cope up with the expectation of Kṛṣṇa who is the embodiment of enjoyment?
Among the Nitya Siddhas, there is also a very great variety. In Ujjvala nīlāmaṇi, it is described that there are different types of sakhis. Many of those will be nitya siddhas. Some will be in higher positions, some will be in lower positions.
The aspiration of the Jīva in the material world who follow caitanya mahāprabhu is to ultimately relate with the highest sakhis of all, that is Rādha and her group. And we get the assistance of the material world of Guru. And in the spiritual world, he will also have a spiritual śakti.
Because the relationship is eternal, therefore guidance will be given in the spiritual world also. However, among the personalities there, obviously those who are the nitya-siddhas will have greater status and will also give instruction. So in the spiritual world, we have many gurus.
6.) Mahārāj, it looks like it may be easier to perform Bhakti after realizing Ātmā. So can devotees aspire for this stage even though his ultimate goal is Prema?
To realize Ātmā is even more difficult, because you would have to do jñāna or yoga which are considered more time consuming and more difficult to perform. Whereas Bhakti is easier to perform quicker and automatically includes all knowledge.
7.) Mahārāj, is it that only Vṛndāvan Kṛṣṇa appears once in a day of Brahma? Is he the same as Vāsudeva Kṛṣṇa? If not, does Vāsudeva Kṛṣṇa appear more than once?
The forms that appear in Vṛndāvan, Mathura and Dwāraka, they only appear once.
Devotees: Grantharāj śrīmad Bhāgavatam ki jai!!! HH Bhānu Swāmī Mahārāj ki jai!!! HDG AC Bhakti Vedānta Swāmi śrīla Prabhupāda ki jai!!!