Srimad Bhagavatam 10.3.23 | HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj | ISKCON Melbourne | 11 March 2026
jaya rādhā-mādhava kuñja-vihārī
gopījana-vallabha giri-vara-dhārī
yaśodā-nandana vraja-jana-rañjana
yamunā-tīra-vana-cārī
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
Jaya Prabhupāda Jaya Prabhupāda
Prabhupāda Jaya Prabhupāda
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale
śrīmate bhaktivedānta-svāmin iti nāmine
namas te sārasvate deve gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe
nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe
jaya śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
Reading from Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 10 Chapter 3 Verse 23.
ŚB 10.3.23
śrī-śuka uvāca
athainam ātmajaṁ vīkṣya
mahā-puruṣa-lakṣaṇam
devakī tam upādhāvat
kaṁsād bhītā suvismitā
Synonyms
śrī-śukaḥ uvāca — Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī said; atha — after this offering of prayers by Vasudeva; enam — this Kṛṣṇa; ātmajam — their son; vīkṣya — observing; mahā-puruṣa-lakṣaṇam — with all the symptoms of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Viṣṇu; devakī — Kṛṣṇa’s mother; tam — unto Him (Kṛṣṇa); upādhāvat — offered prayers; kaṁsāt — of Kaṁsa; bhītā — being afraid; su-vismitā — and also being astonished by seeing such a wonderful child.
Translation
Śukadeva Gosvāmī continued: Thereafter, having seen that her child had all the symptoms of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Devakī, who was very much afraid of Kaṁsa and unusually astonished, began to offer prayers to the Lord.
Purport
The word suvismitā, meaning “astonished,” is significant in this verse. Devakī and her husband, Vasudeva, were assured that their child was the Supreme Personality of Godhead and could not be killed by Kaṁsa, but because of affection, as they thought of Kaṁsa’s previous atrocities, they were simultaneously afraid that Kṛṣṇa would be killed. This is why the word suvismitā has been used. Similarly, we are also astounded upon thinking of whether this movement will be killed by the asuras or will continue to advance without fear.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj:
So here, Sukadeva Goswami describes Devaki, and here it says she saw her son, who was qualified with qualities of a Maha-purusha. So there are some scriptures which describe the qualities of a great person. Sometimes the persons may be human beings, sometimes, of course, the Supreme Lord Himself. So these are called the lakshana, or the markings of a great person. There are many different qualities. One of the qualities is that the person’s arms extend to their knees [Laughs]. This is one of the remarkable things, and we see that, of course, in Vishnu Himself. His arms touch down to His knees. The same with Lord Caitanya. We see when Lord Caitanya was born, again, they had similar types of lakshana, or qualities. Therefore, they could make predictions about His future. We also, of course, see this in the case of other great devotees, or when the Supreme Lord is born, the characteristics are noted, and then the people begin to praise that person because of his great qualities.
So, of course, Supreme Lord is distinguished from normal great persons of this world, so therefore He has very special qualities. So He’s not just Mahapurusha, He’s the Supreme Lord Himself. In the case of Krishna, of course, He appeared very remarkable because He had four hands, and nobody appears with four hands [Laughs] except the Supreme Lord. So, very, very remarkable. And He appeared fully decorated, you know, with jewels and crown, etc. So, a very remarkable personality. And this was to show Vasudeva and Devaki that He was actually fulfilling His promise to appear as their son, because in three lifetimes He would become their son. So, this was to show them, I’ve come as your son. So, though He is their son, or ātmajaṁ, which means born from, you know, themselves [Laughs], born from Vasudev and Devaki, still He is Supreme Lord. Which looks like a contradiction because usually ātmajaṁ means a person is born with a material body from a mother and a father. And that’s because the contribution of the mother and father is there to produce a child. In this case, it is not so. And previously it was described how actually this was not a normal birth because actually the Lord transferred Himself from the mind of Vasudeva to the mind of Devaki [Laughs]. So, it was not normal birth at all. And in this way, He simply manifested Himself in Vasudev and Devaki in His actual form. And He didn’t have to be born like a normal child with a material body.
So, this is the nature of the Supreme Lord. He remains with a spiritual body inspite of the fact that He appears within the material world. And it may look like He is born as a normal person. And many people mistake that and say, Oh, Krishna is born to Vasudeva and Devaki or Krishna is born to Nanda and Yasoda like a normal child. So, that actually is untrue in the sense that Krishna doesn’t have a material body. So, He is not born like us. At the same time, it is true in the sense that He, by His will, becomes the son of Vasudev and Devaki and Nanda and Yasoda. So, we cannot say He is not their son [Laughs]. He is eternally their son. And then, in the material world, He manifests as if being born as their son. So, therefore, Vasudeva and Devaki will say, yes, Krishna is born to us, ātmajaṁ. And similarly, Nanda and Yasoda will think Krishna is born to us. So, then we can think, well, okay, that’s just an illusion. Krishna is playing a trick on them. He is saying to be born from them, but He is actually not born from them or whatever. But if we say that, then that makes all of Krishna’s pastimes into tricks or illusions, like Krishna is just sitting there in the spiritual world doing nothing, but then He is making all this arrangement. People think they are playing with Krishna, but actually it is all illusion. [Laughs] So, Krishna’s manifestation, His birth from Vasudeva and Devaki or from Yasoda and Nanda, oh, it is just an illusion. Krishna is doing all this to satisfy them or whatever, but actually it is all illusory. That doesn’t make sense either. So, therefore, we cannot say that these pastimes are illusory in any way and that Krishna actually doesn’t appear in this way, but He is just making them feel like that. Krishna does arrange pastimes of this nature, and they are not illusory.
Just as Krishna, for instance, with mother Yasoda, appears as her son, and He is a little child, maybe three years old or whatever like that, and He gets angry and He kicks the yogurt pot and the yogurt flows out, or butter flows out, and then He runs away in fear, and then mother Yasoda chases Him with a stick. So, then we can say, well, Krishna is acting like this because He is Supreme Lord and He is not actually afraid, and He doesn’t run from the stick at all, you know, like this. It is an arrangement for, just to please mother Yasoda. But that doesn’t make sense either, because then Krishna is just fooling people [Laughs]. And He appears to be a small child, but actually He is not. He appears to be afraid, but He is not. He appears to be crying, but He is actually not. He is just pretending like an actor. So, then if we assume that all of Krishna’s pastimes are just acts, that He is performing like an actor, and then He gets off stage and He is someone completely different, that is completely useless. So, though Krishna appears to be afraid when He is not afraid because He is Supreme Lord, our Acharyas says that actually He experiences fear. And when He cries, He really cries. And when He sees the stick of mother Yasoda, He is actually afraid, and He just trembles and He cries, even though He is Supreme Lord. So, it is not a false show like an actor just acting, and then actually He is just being calm, and He is just doing this for mother Yasoda. That would be completely false.
So, Krishna identifies completely with these different roles He plays. Yes, they are roles in one sense because He is doing different things with different devotees, but Krishna experiences all of this. How is it possible for the Lord to do so? Possible because He is the Supreme Lord, and He can identify completely as the son of mother Yasoda, and He can be afraid of her stick, and He can cry and whatever. Simultaneously, He is the Supreme Lord, and everybody is afraid of Him. It is possible because, and it is not an act that He acts as mother Yasoda’s son, He actually is, and completely identifies as the son of mother Yasoda. And possible because He is Supreme Lord. And He can become all of these different personalities in response to His devotees. So, therefore, He can appear in the material world, and He can appear to be born. In one sense, yes, He is eternal. He has no birth and death. But yet He appears, and it is not illusory. It is an actual pastime of the Lord.
So, we know that everything spiritual is eternal. The Lord’s form is eternal. The devotees in the spiritual world have eternal forms. The Lord appears within the material world, and He still has His eternal form. But then the problem comes is that Krishna and other forms like Rama, they come in the material world, and they appear to be babies [Laughs]. And then they appear to grow [Laughs]. So they change their form. But we also say the Lord never changes His form. Form is eternal. So how can he do that? And so we say, okay, He is actually not changing His form. It is all illusory. But we can’t say that either. How can the Lord make illusions for devotees [Laughs]? So it also looks impossible. But again, we have to accept the inconceivable power of the Supreme Lord. But, of course, it is also explained in one way, rationally explaining it for instance that, and, of course, this applies not just for Krishna being born and growing up in the material world. Even in the spiritual world, spiritual world consists of, there is no time. Nevertheless, there is a day and a night. And within that, Supreme Lord, Vishnu or Krishna or Rama, they perform pastimes, which consists of different activities. Krishna doing different things. Krishna experiencing different things. So that itself means change.
When Krishna acts in a certain way, when Krishna steals some yogurt, or whatever, or butter, He is going through a certain activity. And there is hands moving, and whatever, feet moving, whatever, there is a change taking place. And simultaneously we say nothing changes, nothing moves [Laughs]. So Lord should not change, but He is changing, He is moving. Which is subject to time. Action takes place through time in the material world. And there is no time in the spiritual world. Yeah. We have activities in the spiritual world. And it kind of looks like time, which is, of course, spiritual time. But yet there seems to be change taking place all the time in the spiritual world when it should have no change. But then, of course, there is no change, and everything is like a solid picture, and nothing ever moves in the spiritual world. That also is ridiculous [Laughs].
So, therefore, we have to change our conception. When we speak about spiritual world and spiritual form, spiritual time and spiritual activities and pastimes, etc. And at the same time being eternal and unchanging, etc. So the same applies also when Krishna comes into the material world, and He appears to be born, and He grows up in different ages. It’s described that He begins with His infancy age, which we call the kaumara age. And then up to five years old. And after five years old, He goes into pauganda age, which is very suitable for sakhya rasa. And the first age is very nice for vatsalya rasa. Then He goes into kaishora period, when He is over eight years old, eight to twelve. And then this is very suitable for madhurya rasa. So then, we have Krishna growing up into three different ages, and He is changing. He has different forms. He is this big, then He is this big, then He is this big, then He is this big [Laughs]. He is changing over years in the material world. So then that also looks very contradictory. How can the Lord change and whatever like that?
So, of course, because He is spiritual and has inconceivable powers, He can do anything. But one explanation is that, all of these forms of the Lord, which are constantly changing because He is small and He is getting bigger and bigger and bigger, then He goes from five to eight and then He is bigger from pauganda. He keeps changing, changing, changing all the time. It looks very unstable. It looks like material world. So, answer is that from our perception, yes, it all looks like it is changing and Krishna is growing when He shouldn’t grow. But from the spiritual point of view, every so-called change is an eternal state of Krishna. So Krishna grows this much or this much, each stage is eternal [Laughs]. And He grows this much and this much and this much, whatever it is, whatever little small change is there, it is eternal.
So how is it possible Krishna has billions of changes as He grows up? Not impossible because Krishna is Supreme Lord. So therefore it is explained that each of these forms, each of these little changes is eternal. Why? Because Krishna is manifesting Himself in all of these different forms in different universes simultaneously. So if He is having a birth in one universe, a moment later the birth is taking place in another universe, and another universe, another universe, another universe, another universe [Laughs]. So each second and each whatever Krishna, that one pastime is going on eternally. And then when He grows a little bit, that is also going on eternally. Next, when He grows up bigger and bigger. Everything is going on eternally in some place in some universe. So in this way, what looks like change to us is actually eternal states, simply manifesting now like this progressively for us, but actually the state is continuous throughout different universes. And that is not just for his change in size, but for His activities when He is moving or changing or lifting Govardhana Hill or whatever. All these different states are eternal and manifesting somewhere in some universe. So in this way everything is eternal ultimately for the Lord. So inspite of the fact of seeming to grow from our point of view, these are all eternal states of the Lord.
So when we read about and hear about the pastimes of Krishna and about His, as it says in the title of this chapter, birth of Lord Krishna [Laughs], birth and then His growth throughout the 10th canto, and the different activities of Krishna, when we hear all this, we should understand that, yes, all of these are eternal states of Krishna. And this of course, applies to other forms of the Lord as well. So we cannot apply completely our material perceptions to the Supreme Lord. However, by the mercy of the Lord, because the spiritual world actually is inaccessible to us, because we don’t have spiritual eyes and spiritual mind at this point, still, to some degree, we can access. And therefore we have pastimes of the Lord and we can appreciate them and read about them, hear about them, study them, etc. So though Krishna is inaccessible, through the scriptures we can somewhat access the nature of Krishna. But with the provision that we do so with devotion. If we don’t have the devotion, we just read this as an analytical scholar or something, then we’ll find all sorts of contradictions, and how can it be spiritual because Krishna grows up and whatever, He should have an eternal body, and we can bring up all sorts of logical arguments that why it cannot be actually true.
So scripture is there, and it can give us an idea of the spiritual nature of Krishna as long as we read with devotion. We accept the fact that Krishna can do the impossible [Laughs]. And therefore whatever objections are there by materialists or logicians, that can be answered by the fact that Supreme Lord is beyond material conception anyway, and He can appear within the material world and adjust himself somewhat so that we can see Him, but ultimately He’s beyond material comprehension or material logic. But the Lord is merciful, so therefore He allows us to some degree to understand His nature through the descriptions in the scriptures. So that is the purpose of Srimad Bhagavatam, to manifest the pastimes of Krishna when He appeared within this material world. And to the extent that we have devotion, we can access these pastimes and understand them to some degree.
In the, at the end of the tenth canto, we have the 87th chapter of the tenth canto, we have the prayers of the personified Vedas, which is a very philosophically complex chapter with a lot of commentaries on it. But the question arises at the beginning there, Supreme Lord is beyond material conception. And of course as Brahman, He’s not even subject to any words or form, He has no form or qualities or activities, so naturally you can’t explain him. But even if we accept Bhagavan with spiritual name, form and qualities, we cannot literally describe Him with material words. We accept that. So in that case, what is the use of scripture to describe the Lord? Because we’re reading it with our material eyes, we’re hearing it with our material ear [Laughs], we’re conceiving it with our material mind, so no matter what, we’re taking this as material words to describe a Lord who is beyond material words. So how is it possible that scripture can actually describe the Lord at all, or even Brahman? So of course, one idea is impossible [Laughs], and therefore just sit in the material world and don’t think of Lord at all. The other of course, is that we have to give some explanations. So explanation of impersonalists, of course, is that ultimately scripture cannot describe the Lord, or even Brahman. It’s also maya [Laughs]. So scripture also is ultimately useless. Of course they say, well, yes it’s useless, but you can give us a little bit of a hint of something, you know. But the Vaishnavas have a better explanation, because we can accept that the Lord is not without form, qualities and activities. He is Bhagavan, and He has His shaktis, by which He can do inconceivable things. So with that explanation then, we can say the Lord is beyond material senses, etc. But He can manifest scripture by his inconceivable spiritual potency, and those scriptures are made up of words, and they can appear in the material world, like the Lord can appear in the material world, and people can hear or study these scriptures, just as when the Lord appears as avatars, people can see the Lord in the material world, even if they have material eyes, or whatever [Laughs].
So, people can access scripture, even though it is spiritual, in the material world. How? This is the inconceivable power of the Lord, His spiritual shakti, that words of scripture are non-different from the Supreme Lord, even though they may look like material words. Just as we say, Holy Name is non-different from Krishna. How is it possible? It looks like normal sound. It is Lord’s inconceivable power. He can manifest His name, non-different from Himself, spiritual, in the material world. And He doesn’t lose His spiritual nature, just as Krishna doesn’t lose His spiritual nature when He appears in the material world. So, therefore, the name appears, scripture appears. When we read the scripture, then we can get some idea of the Supreme Lord, because the Lord has His spiritual energies which can manifest, you know, words of scripture, etc.
If we are Mayavadi, who only believes in Brahman and nothing else exists, then it is impossible to get any explanation of how scripture can be spiritual [Laughs]. It has to be only material. Everything material is illusion. You are stuck with nothing, ultimately. But we say, no, scripture is non-different from the Supreme Lord. It is not illusory, real, because the Lord has His spiritual shaktis, by which He can manifest all of this. Only provision, however, is that when we approach the scripture, that we do not approach with a purely material mind. In other words, to read the Bhagavatam, we should be a devotee, we should have devotion. Then we can understand. So a little bit of qualification is there. Just as Krishna appears in the material world, the demons can also see Krishna. But they don’t see spiritual Krishna. They see a material form. Similarly, we have the dhams, like Navadvipa Dham and Vrindavan. A materialist goes there, he does not really see the Dham. He sees some material substances there [Laughs]. One who has got spiritual consciousness, he will see the spiritual Navadvipa or the spiritual Vrindavan.
And so, a person who sees the form of Krishna when He manifests, if he is a demon, He does not see the real spiritual form of Krishna. Sishupala does not see the form of Krishna when he sees Him [Laughs]. But the devotee, like Vasudeva and Devaki, when they see Krishna, they see the spiritual form. So, and of course, then we have people in between. People who are beginning devotional service, but they don’t really, they cannot really see the spiritual form, but because they are devotees, little bit, they get some idea. So that is how we also approach scripture. If we are fully developed with prema and we read scripture, it is not different from Krishna and we enter into the pastimes [Laughs]. But if we are only doing sadhana, then we do not have that vision of Krishna. We cannot enter into the pastimes directly. But because we do have devotion, somewhat we can understand, somewhat we can participate in it, to some degree. So therefore, when we are doing sadhana, we get some access to the real meaning of Krishna and the real meaning of the pastimes. So therefore, the scripture is available to people in the material world if they have some devotion. And the more devotion you have, then the deeper the realization of the scripture becomes until it is non-different from Krishna Himself. So when the great devotees hear the pastimes in the tenth canto, then they are completely absorbed in those pastimes and they enter into them. When we read the pastimes, we do not enter into them directly, but at least we appreciate to some degree.
So therefore, the scripture is non-different from the Supreme Lord. The Lord can be represented in the material world by scripture. And it is not a problem if we accept that Lord is a person and He has shaktis. If we don’t accept that, then of course, it is useless. There is no connection of the Lord with the material world at all. So the same goes for the name. Name, however, is even a little more powerful because even if you don’t have any faith or whatever, or no knowledge, it still affects you [Laughs]. So therefore, Bhagavatam says that even the dog-eater, who has no qualification, who is in tamoguna, and he utters the name of the Lord once purely, he is purer than a brahmana. So the power of the name itself is so great that he can do anything. And even if the name is half-uttered, still, it has power [Laughs]. And of course, if we chant with pure devotion, then we get more power. So the name is very, very accessible to people. May be scripture, difficult, but first you have to have some faith, otherwise you look at it and you don’t accept it at all. But the name, you would just hear it casually, whatever, gradually it starts purifying you [Laughs] and gradually you develop faith. When you develop faith and you chant the name, then you get more effect.
So name is even more potent than all the other scriptures and whatever. So that is why Caitanya Mahaprabhu has presented that, as the primary means of development.
And we do have one of the aparadhas, is do not preach to the faithless people the glories of the Holy Name. So in other words, we could not tell people, in the scripture it says, that the name is non-different from the Lord, and you chant the Holy Name and you get prema. Then we’re preaching the Holy Name to the faithless people. And that becomes an offense, so you cannot preach scripture about the Holy Name to faithless people. So then, how do we spread the Holy Name to them? So, we cannot give them the knowledge from scripture, but they can hear the name [Laughs]. So that’s the approach for the people without faith. Expose them to the Holy Name. And by doing that, eventually they will develop faith. And when they develop faith, we can explain everything to them from scripture. So then the name is more accessible to people than even the scripture itself. But in general, the two things go together. So once a person does have faith and he chants the Holy Name, then scripture becomes accessible to the person and we can teach the person scripture.
So these are the various ways in which the Lord appears in the material world. He appeared as Krishna 5,000 years ago. And the people who were there got the benefit. Those who were already nitya-siddha devotees were blissful because they participated in his pastimes. Those who were sadhana-siddhas got same opportunity to participate in the Lord’s pastimes. Those who were not up to that level, still they got advantage, exposure to the form of Krishna to some degree. And even the demons get advantage from it, especially if they get killed by Him.But when Krishna is not there or any other form is not there, then we still have the scripture. So Bhagavatam has been written. So we have access to Krishna and His pastimes through Bhagavatam. Furthermore, we have access to Krishna through name [Laughs]. This is another way we get access to Krishna even though He is not physically present at the moment as avatar. This is the avatar for the kali yuga, the name. So we got name of Krishna. So this is the access and it is available for everyone. So in this way, the Lord extends His mercy to all people at all times, particularly in the form of the name.
Okay, any question?
Q & A :
1.) Hare Krishna Maharaj. We were talking about Krishna’s eternal forms and eternal relationships. We were discussing yesterday different kind of relationships. So I have heard both things, where it says our relationship with Krishna is eternal and it doesn’t change. But I have also heard it says that if you have a strong desire, it can be changed. So I just wanted to get what your thoughts are on that.
Well, if it is in the spiritual world, it will not change because that eternal relationship is so satisfying that it cannot change. So, we have the different forms of the Lord there. They have their own devotees. And then, of course, we have Vishnu and Ramachandra and Narasimha Dev and Krishna. And they all have their own devotees. At the same time, we also say supreme form is Krishna. And the devotees of Krishna are the best. This, of course, is illustrated in Brhad Bhagavatamrta. The question is, who is the best devotee [Laughs]? And ultimately, the best devotee is, are the Gopis [Laughs]. So then, we say, okay, the Gopis are the best. We should be the best devotees. We should all be Gopis. That’s the logical conclusion. And as far as us in the material world, this is what Lord Caitanya is saying. This is the, madhurya rasa is the highest. You should aspire for this. And then you become a Gopi in the spiritual world. But then, what do we do about all the people in Vaikuntha and Ayodhya and wherever in the spiritual world? Are they supposed to become Gopis also? Are the Cowherd boys supposed to become Gopis in the spiritual world? Then, since the spiritual world is eternal, everyone will be Gopis. And there will be no people in Vaikuntha. There will be no Cowherd boys. There will be no Yasoda and Nanda. Only Gopis and Rasa-lila with Krishna [Laughs] all the time [Laughs]. Nobody else [Laughs]. How is that possible? So therefore, everything is stable in the spiritual world. People aren’t switching around all the time and making other lokas disappear or whatever. They remain as they are. And those devotees who are with Vishnu or other forms of the Lord, they are completely satisfied with that. And they maintain that relationship. Even though we say, you know, Krishna is the highest and madhurya rasa is the highest, still, devotees are all satisfied in those particular ways. So they don’t really change. As far as us in the material world, then, of course, you could change. Just as you may change your preference for whatever. You like dosas one day, next day, you like idlis or whatever [Laughs], or pongal or whatever. So you change your taste a little bit like that. So, spiritually also, we get exposed to different things and we can develop in one direction but then, at a certain point, we may change and develop some other taste or whatever like that. And a lot of that will depend upon association. So if we associate with certain devotees, we may develop a taste for Krishna. We associate with other devotees, we have a taste for Vishnu. So according to our association also, then we may develop taste in a certain direction. And of course, as I said, for Lord Caitanya’s movement, generally it’s all directed towards Radha Krishna. So the general prediction is devotees following Lord Caitanya develop madhurya rasa. In general, true. But then there are devotees who may not. As I said, sakhya rasa is also there. Vatsalya rasa is there. So some devotees are going to be attracted to that also. But we say because of that exposure and association within Gaudiya sampradaya, most will take up madhurya rasa. And when you attain prema, that is eternal.
2.) Thank you, Maharaj. So Maharaj, in this verse, we hear how Mother Devaki, her vatsalya is invoking fear in her, that my son will be harmed when Kamsa will find out. And her aishwarya is mitigating that fear that, oh, my son is Supreme Personality of God and He can’t be harmed. So my question is in terms of Vrajavasis, how are their fears mitigated when they are prominently or exclusively always just in madhurya?
When they think of Krishna as their son, so they don’t think of Him as Supreme Lord. So one thing, of course, is that, we see that they may have fear. Demons are coming whenever and destroying Vrindavan or Indra is coming with his reign or whatever like that. Ultimately, they take shelter of Krishna, not because He is Supreme Lord, but simply out of their affection for Him. So, therefore, when the, Indra starts pouring rain, everybody comes to Krishna. What shall we do? What shall we do? It’s flooding, all the cows are miserable, whatever, please help us [Laughs]. So in this way, they apply to Krishna, not because He is Supreme Lord, simply because they accept Krishna in their relationship with Him as dear most and whatever. So He does become their protector because of their affectionate relationship to Him even though for those in vatsalya rasa, like, we protect Krishna, still everybody in one sense also surrenders to Krishna ultimately, and in this way they take Him as their protector. But when they think about it, as I said, Krishna lifts up Govardhana Hill and protects them all, whatever, but then they say, well, see Krishna is just a small boy. And if He, looks like He lifted up Govardhana Hill, that’s impossible for a small child. So therefore, Krishna didn’t do it [Laughs]. Nanda, Yasoda, Nanda and all the Cowherd men were there, Balarama was there holding up the hill also. So, even though Krishna did do it, they don’t think of Krishna as Supreme Lord because it’s impossible since He is their son.
3.) Hare Krishna Maharaj. Maharaj, you mentioned that Mayavadi consider the scripture to be illusory.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: To be?
Devotee: Illusory.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, the Mayavadis?
Devotee: Yes, but we also heard that they study Vedanta Sutra, they always quote from Vedanta Sutra, they study that. And also find the story of Prakasananda Saraswati telling Mahaprabhu that why are you chanting Harinama, and why don’t you study Vedanta Sutra. So how can we understand they are studying something illusory to find the perfection?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, so of course, even the Mayavadis and Shankaracharya accept the authority of scripture, in the material world, but it is material still because it cannot be spiritual. Only Brahman is spiritual. Nothing else exists. So ultimately it’s all illusory. However, within this illusion, we can use certain things to help us get out of illusion [Laughs]. That’s the argument. Of course, we can say that’s kind of a ridiculous argument, but that’s the argument they give. One of the examples they give, when you’re dreaming, you have dreams. But then, in the dream also, when the tiger comes to attack you, you scream and you wake up [Laughs]. So you wake up from the dream due to the dream [Laughs]. So therefore, scripture, though it is part of the dream, can also help you wake up from the dream. That’s some argument they will give. But in any case, ultimately scripture itself is a manifestation of maya, just as form of Vishnu is also manifestation of maya. Nevertheless, they will also say, you should worship Vishnu. Vishnu is the highest form of sattva guna, and it helps you progress upwards somewhat to the topmost part of the material world. Ultimately, of course, when we get knowledge, then we get released from all the illusion, we give up scripture, we give up everything, and we become Brahman.
4.) Hare Krishna, Maharaj. Thank you for the wonderful class. I have a question regarding the forms of Krishna that you mentioned, that Krishna keeps changing form from childhood to adolescence. But we also know that Krishna always remained youthful throughout all his other lilas in Mathura, in Dwaraka. At the same time, other devotees, they probably grew older. How do we explain this relativity? Is it because of the fact that Krishna always wanted us to be seen in His youthful form throughout His lilas? I just want to understand that part.
Well, Krishna never ages beyond his kaishora form. So even though He goes to Mathura and Dwaraka, and ultimately He stays on Earth for 125 years, He doesn’t get old and look like He’s 125 years old and get white hair and [Laughs] start using a cane or anything like that. So He doesn’t. He remains His youthful features of kaishora after He leaves Vrindavan. But when He’s in Vrindavan, then He manifests these different forms, the baby form and then the five-year-old to eight-year-old form of pauganda. That’s for a particular purpose, and that is to satisfy in His early age those who are in vatsalya rasa. So that baby form, the kaumara form, is a very strong stimulus for vatsalya rasa, just as we see when the child is between one and four years old, then the mother’s affection is the strongest, and when they get to teenage, they’re okay, but [Laughs] the affection is not so strong anymore, as when they’re small children and helpless, and they’re taking care of them. So when Krishna is at that age, then mother Yasoda gets an opportunity to express her vatsalya in a very strong way. The sakhya rasa manifests very nicely when Krishna is five to eight years old, and He has surrounded by Cowherd boys also of the same age, and they can relate with each other in a very friendly way. And then the Gopis can relate with Krishna when He’s in the kaishora period, when He’s eight to twelve years old in Vrindavan. So these are the ideal ages for each of these rasas. So therefore, Krishna manifests these particular periods, not just kaishora period.
5.) Hare Krishna Maharaj. You mentioned that we need to approach to the sastras with devotion in order to understand Krishna’s pastimes. I wonder about that devotion. It means faith, or how should that devotion be expressed and cultivated?
Yeah, okay, so we need devotion to approach scriptures. Of course, we can say before that, ultimately we have faith. So, one definition of faith is that, we accept the bhakti scriptures and their conclusions. That’s the faith. Based on that, then we can hear the scriptures, read the scriptures and follow the instructions, and then we do bhakti [Laughs]. But, if we don’t have the faith in the scriptures themselves, what they’re saying, then how can we do bhakti at all? So, in order to get to the scriptures themselves, we have to have faith that the words are true. Then, when we start reading the scriptures, of course, then we start practicing bhakti. So, the prerequisite for the bhakti is the faith. Then we take the scriptures and get mercy of devotees, then we perform bhakti, sadhana, and the jiva develops more and more affection for the Lord. And the more affection we have for the Lord when we read the scriptures, the more we can understand about it and the deeper realization we can get. But, before everything, at least we do have to accept the scripture [Laughs] and okay, this is true, we’re not going to argue with it. Once we get that, we practice bhakti, and then we can begin to understand what the scripture is telling us through the devotion.
Devotee: Just further on that question, when we say we need devotion to understand Krishna, and we try and explain that to other people, that you do devotion, you’ll understand also, they generally say, you guys are brainwashed, and you’re just putting under that spell as well, that you do devotion and you understand. How do we reply to that?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: If we are to believe, even science, or a textbook in science, we need some faith. If we don’t have faith in the university or the textbook, we can challenge everything that the textbook says, and we’re not going to learn anything. So, even for science, you do need faith. You have to have faith that what Newton said was true. Otherwise, you go to school and you can try to disprove everything that was in the textbook that Newton said, or what Einstein said. We’re not going to accept them. You start from scratch [Laughs]. You try to disprove everything that’s said by famous scientists. But then, you won’t get any knowledge at all in terms of modern science. So, some faith is there in something or other to be any source of knowledge. We have to accept the source as being some absolute for us, in any form of knowledge. The only, we can say, protest of scientists is that, well, yes, we do need faith in science, but we can demonstrate it is true. That would be the argument of science. So, therefore, that’s what happened in the Renaissance and the Age of Enlightenment. They had the previous knowledge from the middle ages carried over from the Greeks, and then they accepted everything. Then, when they came to the Enlightenment, there were certain things like medical science, and they just accepted what the Greeks said. And so, the anatomy was based upon the Greeks, and they didn’t cut up people at that time at all. So, then the heart was here, and the lung was here, and whatever, all the organs. But then somebody got the bright idea of cutting up someone open, and found the organs are in different places, not what the Greeks said. So, why we should, we have to examine very carefully and look with our eyes and confirm everything with our, you know, experimentation. So, that’s how science arose. And, therefore, they have all sorts of scientific theories, and astronomy, and Galileo, and whatever. And it contradicted what the Church said, which is based upon what the Greeks said about the planets moving around in the sky, whatever. It was completely different. So, then, of course, the religious say, ah, you’re all heretics, and they burn them at the stake, and whatever [Laughs]. But, eventually, you know, they kept saying, no, look at this, it’s true, because you look in the telescope, it’s like this, it’s like this, and here’s the mathematics. Eventually, then, science won. And, they refused to accept what was in the scriptures, or what the Greeks said, or whatever, because a lot of it was untrue, according to observation. So, of course, that’s also true. We don’t deny that, that if something is in a scripture that looks like it’s true, but we discover it’s not true, then we have to reject it. So, that’s the general principle in science. The problem only comes when we come to spiritual things. Because spiritual things, you cannot observe by science, so you can never prove or disprove them. So, if scripture says God exists, and He is the creator of the material world, there’s no way of proving that by science. So, therefore, scientists say, we cannot accept this. They cannot say it’s untrue, nor can they say it’s true, ultimately. They say it’s unproven by science. God may exist, God may not exist, we don’t know. That’s the best that science can do when it comes to scriptural statements. So, if we are not satisfied completely with science, it gives us so many ideas, like this, like this, like this, and we’re still wondering, well, yes, science is very nice, but I’m still not satisfied [Laughs]. I don’t know the meaning of life, and science isn’t telling me the meaning of life. And no matter how much I read physics, I don’t get satisfied. It doesn’t give me an answer. They say it’s all big bang, and it’s all chance, and all chance mutations. I’m not satisfied. So, what do we do? So, if we’re not satisfied on certain questions by what science gives us, it doesn’t give a solution to a certain problem, then we may go to scripture. And science cannot deny that, because they can’t give you answers to certain things. So, and if you think that, okay, existence of God, existence of atma, this gives me some satisfaction, then we go to scripture, we get some explanations, we accept that it’s true, then we accept that scripture. It’s based on faith, not because it’s provable by material things, but because I read it and I do get some satisfaction. It’s not some material satisfaction of scientific proof, but nevertheless, we get some satisfaction from it. So, therefore, the faith is very important for anything. And, of course, the scientists will say, yeah, we don’t know, we can’t prove it. They can’t say that it’s untrue. They just say it’s a realm that is beyond the purview of science. That’s all they can say, ultimately. Of course, science itself is getting to the realm where they’re in a position where they have to accept consciousness, but they cannot define it. So, there are certain things in science that cannot be proved, or, you know, they don’t want to say [Laughs]. Is consciousness true or not? Is it real? And, if so, what is it? They’re stuck because they cannot really observe it according to normal scientific methods.
6.) Maharaj, I just have some question about the Holy Name that you were explaining last night. So, for suddha-nama, what is the essential criteria to say this is suddha-nama as opposed to namabhasa? When you explained yesterday that knowledge is one of the criteria, but during the act of chanting, is there something that we should be conscious of at the time for chanting suddha–nama?
Yeah. So, the difference between suddha-nama and namabhasa is that suddha-nama is one, we do have knowledge, knowledge of God, that He’s not material or whatever, He’s distinct from devatas, no birth and death, etc. Fully conscious, full of knowledge, so we have a proper definition of God. We also have a proper definition of jiva, that jiva is a small particle and is eternal and he doesn’t become God [Laughs]. And that he is naturally a servant of the Supreme Lord. We have to accept that. And, then we have to accept the idea that the basic relationship between God and the jiva is one of affection. And we have to cultivate that affection through the process of bhakti yoga. And then we have pure bhakti, we have impure bhakti, mixed bhakti, etc., so we should practice pure bhakti to get prema. So, some basic knowledge, that’s one thing. Then we can chant nicely. The other is that when we are chanting, even when we have that knowledge, we will have material desires, material attraction, etc, which we call anarthas. So the anarthas also create an abhasa, so the name is not pure because of that. So the knowledge part of it, we can very quickly or easily clear that up, the abhasa, due to ignorance or whatever, by the knowledge of scripture, that’s not a problem. And the anarthas, we can clear up through the process of bhakti because we have anartha-nivrtti. So by the process of bhakti, we destroy karmas, we destroy vasanas, anarthas, false ego, they gradually get destroyed. So, of course, the anarthas are not completely destroyed until prema. So then we can say, well, yes, I got my ignorance removed by knowledge during sadhana itself, beginning of sadhana, but the anarthas remain all the way up in the bhava stage, so therefore I can’t chant suddha-nama even until [Laughs] bhava, in the bhava stage and prema. But that’s the same argument that may be given for pure bhakti, that I can’t do pure bhakti until I got prema. But, our Acharyas say, no, pure bhakti starts from the beginning of your sadhana also, despite of the fact you do have anarthas, etc [Laughs]. So, literally, of course, there is no pure bhakti until you have prema. But in terms of sadhana, to get to prema, we have to practice pure bhakti. Which means, even if we have anarthas, even if our knowledge is not perfect, the definition of pure bhakti is there for sadhana, bhava, and prema. Same definition. So, to some extent, yes, we do have anarthas, etc. We still have some little ignorance or whatever. But in sadhana itself, we practice pure bhakti in order to get the prema. And if we don’t practice that pure bhakti in sadhana, we don’t get the prema, even though we do have anarthas. Because obviously, when we’re doing sadhana, we do have anarthas. So, but therefore, when we talk about the pure name also, then, yes, we get rid of the ignorance by the knowledge. And it’s not perfect knowledge, because we can go on reading and reading, get more and more knowledge as we go on, and the realization gets deeper until we get to bhava and prema. And simultaneously, the anarthas gradually get destroyed. But at least, when we’re practicing, even from the beginning, doing pure bhakti or doing pure name, we do not indulge in the anarthas. So, we restrict them as much as possible, because we do have understanding, this is unfavorable for our bhakti. So, in other words, we don’t take advantage of bhakti to increase our anarthas [Laughs] and whatever. We understand they are unhealthy, and we avoid them as much as possible, even though they’re there. We practice our bhakti, and we don’t indulge in them. To that extent, we call it pure bhakti, even in sadhana.
7.) Maharaj, can you comment on the last two lines of the purport of Srila Prabhupada in this verse and explain to us?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: What’s that? Suvismitā ?
Devotee: Last two lines. Last two lines of the purport.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah. We are astonished upon thinking of whether this movement will be killed by asuras, or will continue to advance without fear. So, of course, he’s talking about here Devaki. The last word is suvismitā. Very astonished. So, Devaki was astonished. She was afraid of Kamsa. And then, she was also astonished. So, why was she astonished? Of course, one is that there was the threat of Kamsa. Simultaneously, she understood that Krishna is Supreme Lord. So, there’s no problem with, you know, Krishna getting killed or whatever. But, nevertheless, she was feeling, you know, all these other sons were killed. Krishna can also be killed. So, this creates a little bit of a contradiction there. Krishna is not to be killed, but at the same time, we do have this big threat of Kamsa. So, this was a little bit astonishing. How can Krishna arrange for this [Laughs]? Such an event where, you know, everyone has fear that Krishna is going to get killed when actually, He can never be killed. So, the astonishment at that very arrangement. So similarly, not just with Krishna, but even with the devotees of the Lord, we don’t understand. Even the great devotees do not understand how Krishna is acting in this material world. So, therefore, we see that Bhishma Dev in the first canto says that, we do not understand the plan of Krishna. Because, how do you end up as a devotee and at the same time be at the opposite side and have to fight with [Laughs] Arjuna and all the Pandavas [Laughs]? How is it that the Pandavas were unprotected, seemed to be unprotected and they were banished for 13 years in the forest, when they are the devotees of the Lord and Krishna should protect them, but they seem to suffer? And how is it that suddenly we have this huge battle and you know, millions of people are dying when Krishna is supposed to protect the devotees with everybody dying [Laughs]? So, it is very difficult to, even for great devotees, to understand the arrangements of the Supreme Lord in this material world. So, sometimes it looks like the devotees are unprotected. In this case, it looks like Krishna is unprotected because Kamsa is coming and then Vasudeva has to make some arrangement to take Krishna away, whatever. So, this looks astonishing from one point of view because why doesn’t Krishna make it easier and just say Krishna, Kamsa disappear and Kamsa will be dead [Laughs], just by thinking of it. But yet we see this Krishna was a big threat for so many years and he attacked, you know, sent many demons to Vrindavan to kill Krishna and others, harassed the people there. Why does he have to do that [Laughs]? So, it may be difficult for the devotees to understand Krishna’s arrangements and why He doesn’t just directly make things very easy and have all the devotees happy all the time and not afflicted by demons or whatever. So, that is the astonishment. How does Krishna act? Why does He act in a certain way? And so the same thing with the movement. The movement rises and falls and we have problems or what not and then we think, oh Krishna is not protecting us or Krishna is not protecting the movement or whatever. But we don’t understand the plan of the Supreme Lord also. In any case, as in the case of Bhishma and others, they ultimately, as devotees, they accept and tolerate whatever situation there is in the material world. And understand that the Lord has His own plan and we just tolerate here whatever is here, whether it’s suffering or not suffering. And that toleration of our situation is also the way in which we gain the mercy of the Lord. If we just tolerate everything and don’t question what is the Lord’s plan or whatever, we accept it and we go on with our, continue our devotional service somehow or other. So that is the main message through all of this, that the devotee is never disturbed by the different situations, not disturbed in terms of his devotional service and his faith, whatever happens in the material world. Certainly, we don’t know the Lord’s plan.
8.) Hare Krishna, Maharaj. Thank you, Maharaj. So yesterday night in the seminar, you did mention that, you mentioned all the yoga ladders and then karma yoga generally lead up to Brahmaloka or higher planets and jnana and dhyana leads to impersonal liberation. So the term technically, I’m just asking a little technical in terms of Bhagavad Gita, I got a doubt there that yoga, when we say yoga, it means it connects to Krishna. So when karma yoga actually in literal terms is bhakti yoga. So then I didn’t understand the hierarchy which you mentioned that the karma yoga, it was written karma but you did say karma yoga. So was that karma in terms of karmi or was it like karma yoga when it’s connected to Krishna?
Yeah, so generally when I was using the term karma, I mean karma yoga. So we have these different yoga systems. The word yoga, of course, has many meanings. The general meaning is simply method. So the karma method, the jnana method, the astanga yoga method and the bhakti method. Of course, method, yoga also means to link together. So, of course, in bhakti yoga, we’re linking with the Supreme Lord in service. In jnana yoga, we’re merging into the Lord [Laughs], in sayuja mukti. And in karma yoga, we’re linking to the Lord indirectly because we have a little worship of the Lord and we’re progressing through the gunas but we don’t get direct relationship with the Lord but we get some favorable situation through sattva guna. So that’s indirect link with the Supreme Lord. So in that sense they’re all yogas.
9.) Hare Krishna Maharaj. You mentioned in the class, how in this material world, change is happening because of the time factor. And in the spiritual world, there’s also change. There’s the days and the nights and there’s activities. I’m just wondering, is there any way we can actually understand that with the material mind, that spiritual change?
So, of course, very difficult to understand with the material mind because even scientists don’t know what time is [Laughs]. They know it’s part of the material world and it kind of goes in one direction, it doesn’t go the other way. But of course, in relativity, I think they do say that time can slow down also and whatever. Maybe it can go backwards also, I don’t know. It can go faster than the speed of light, maybe it goes backwards, I don’t know. But anyway, they don’t quite know what time is. It’s a force in the material world, exactly what it is, they don’t know. In terms of scripture, of course, time is part of the material world, kala, but it is not matter in the sense that prakrti is matter. It is very subtle, like karma is part of the material world, but it’s not matter also. It’s not a substance as such. But it’s some sort of force that acts within the material world and creates perception of past, present, and future for us. So that type of time does not exist in the spiritual world. There is no past, present, and future as we know it because that past, present, and future leads to creation, destruction, etc, old age, disease, whatever, all these problems are there. And such things do not exist in the spiritual world. So in that sense, time does not exist. However, pastimes do exist, and pastimes, when we define them, take place over what looks like time. Krishna gets up in the morning, Krishna goes to the fields, Krishna has lunch in the fields with the Cowherd boys [Laughs], Krishna comes back in the evening, and it seems to take place through time. So no problem. We can have time in the spiritual world that is not destructive, it’s not in terms of creation and destruction, it is not, we say, how do you call it, unilinear, going in one direction. Krishna can adjust the time, whatever He wants to [Laughs] do according to His pastime. He can slow it down, He can speed it up, whatever. So thus we see that, for instance, in the Rasa-lila, the Rasa-lila took place in the night time and ended before the sunrise, so it was a few hours, like midnight, a few hours to two in the morning like that. But then it is also said that it continued for the whole night of Brahma [Laughs], which fit within the two hours of a normal night, because there was so much ecstasy that the Gopis and Krishna could not stop dancing for a whole night of Brahma, which is millions and millions of years, but that could fit within the two hours of what our perception is. So that spiritual time operating, and it can expand or contract or do whatever according to Krishna’s will [Laughs]. So, yes, time can exist, but it is completely at Krishna’s will, and the idea of past, present, future may not exist in the same way as in our conception.
Hare Krishna.
Devotees: Grantharaj Srimad Bhagavatam ki jai!!! HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj ki jai!!! Srila Prabhupada ki jai!!! Nitai Gaura Premanande Hari Haribol!!!