Srimad Bhagavatam 5.24.15-17 | HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj | ISKCON Auckland | 21 March 2026
jaya rādhā-mādhava kuñja-vihārī
gopījana-vallabha giri-vara-dhārī
yaśodā-nandana vraja-jana-rañjana
yamunā-tīra-vana-cārī
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
Jaya Prabhupāda Jaya Prabhupāda
Prabhupāda Jaya Prabhupāda
Reading from Śrīla Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta – Volume Two – CHAPTER FORTY-ONE
The Battle for Bombay.
When a householder couple, Gurudāsa and Yamunā, agreed to remain in Vṛndāvana to help Prabhupāda build the temple, Prabhupāda welcomed it and shared with them the intention of his plan.
If you can construct a nice temple in Vrndavana for me in this way, I shall be eternally grateful. Because we are a worldwide movement of Krishna, and if we do not have a nice place at Vrndavana, then what will be the use? Vrndavana is Krishna’s land, and in the future many of our disciples will go there just to see, along with many tourists and other friends, so therefore we must have sufficient place for them. … I know that you are not trained up for being construction manager, neither that job must be very tasteful to you, but because you are sincere devotee of Krishna, He is giving you all strength and intelligence how to do it. That is what we want; that is advancement in Krishna consciousness.
By the time Prabhupāda and most of his disciples left Vṛndāvana at the end of Kārttika, relations between his disciples and the residents of Vṛndāvana had improved. The people of Vṛndāvana were by the devotees’ daily saṅkīrtana procession to Ramaṇa-reti, and they were impressed by Prabhupāda. Although Prabhupāda felt that much time had been wasted – it had been a year since Mr. S. had offered them the land – he was now hopeful.
ISKCON projects were developing all over the world, and all were struggling. The devotees’ only means of income was from the sale of books and, to some degree, from their Spiritual Sky incense business. As yet Prabhupāda had no architectural plan for his Vṛndāvana project, but he determined to gather from his Book Fund and from devotees enough money for materials and labor. One day he went to the building site and asked a devotee to mix a little cement, and with his own hand, he laid down the first concrete for the foundation.
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale
śrīmate bhaktivedānta-svāmin iti nāmine
namas te sārasvate deve gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe
nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe
jaya śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
Reading from Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 5 Chapter 24 Verse 15.
ŚB 5.24.15
yasmin praviṣṭe ’sura-vadhūnāṁ prāyaḥ puṁsavanāni bhayād eva sravanti patanti ca.
Synonyms
yasmin — where; praviṣṭe — when entered; asura-vadhūnām — of the wives of those demons; prāyaḥ — almost always; puṁsavanāni — fetuses; bhayāt — because of fear; eva — certainly; sravanti — slip out; patanti — fall down; ca — and.
Translation
When the Sudarśana disc enters those provinces, the pregnant wives of the demons all have miscarriages due to fear of its effulgence.
Text 16
Translation
My dear King, now I shall describe to you the lower planetary systems, one by one, beginning from Atala. In Atala there is a demon, the son of Maya Dānava named Bala, who created ninety-six kinds of mystic power. Some so-called yogīs and svāmīs take advantage of this mystic power to cheat people even today. Simply by yawning, the demon Bala created three kinds of women, known as svairiṇī, kāmiṇī and puṁścalī. The svairiṇīs like to marry men from their own group, the kāmiṇīs marry men from any group, and the puṁścalīs change husbands one after another. If a man enters the planet of Atala, these women immediately capture him and induce him to drink an intoxicating beverage made with a drug known as hāṭaka [cannabis indica]. This intoxicant endows the man with great sexual prowess, of which the women take advantage for enjoyment. A woman will enchant him with attractive glances, intimate words, smiles of love and then embraces. In this way she induces him to enjoy sex with her to her full satisfaction. Because of his increased sexual power, the man thinks himself stronger than ten thousand elephants and considers himself most perfect. Indeed, illusioned and intoxicated by false pride, he thinks himself God, ignoring impending death.
Text 17
Translation
The next planet below Atala is Vitala, wherein Lord Śiva, who is known as the master of gold mines, lives with his personal associates, the ghosts and similar living entities. Lord Śiva, as the progenitor, engages in sex with Bhavānī, the progenitress, to produce living entities, and from the mixture of their vital fluid the river named Hāṭakī is generated. When fire, being made to blaze by the wind, drinks of this river and then sizzles and spits it out, it produces gold called Hāṭaka. The demons who live on that planet with their wives decorate themselves with various ornaments made from that gold, and thus they live there very happily.
Purport
It appears that when Bhava and Bhavānī, Lord Śiva and his wife, unite sexually, the emulsification of their secretions creates a chemical which when heated by fire can produce gold. It is said that the alchemists of the medieval age tried to prepare gold from base metal, and Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī also states that when bell metal is treated with mercury, it can produce gold. Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī mentions this in regard to the initiation of low-class men to turn them into brāhmaṇas. Sanātana Gosvāmī said:
yathā kāñcanatāṁ yāti
kāṁsyaṁ rasa-vidhānataḥ
tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena
dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇām
“As one can transform kaṁsa, or bell metal, into gold by treating it with mercury, one can also turn a lowborn man into a brāhmaṇa by initiating him properly into Vaiṣṇava activities.” The International Society for Krishna Consciousness is trying to turn mlecchas and yavanas into real brāhmaṇas by properly initiating them and stopping them from engaging in meat-eating, intoxication, illicit sex and gambling. One who stops these four principles of sinful activity and chants the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra can certainly become a pure brāhmaṇa through the process of bona fide initiation, as suggested by Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī.
Apart from this, if one takes a hint from this verse and learns how to mix mercury with bell metal by properly heating and melting them, one can get gold very cheaply. The alchemists of the medieval age tried to manufacture gold, but they were unsuccessful, perhaps because they did not follow the right instructions.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj:
So, of course, these verses are describing the lower planetary systems. You see the first one or Atala, and there’s a Bala demon there with his mystic powers, and there’s all of these different types of women there who seduce men. And below that we have Vitala, we have Lord Shiva with his wife and they produce gold, lots of gold, so all the people are decorated nicely with golden ornaments. From this we, of course, see that everything is based on material happiness, either on sex life or displaying gold and wealth, etc, which are, of course, very temporary.
In the purport, Prabhupada talks about the transformation of base metal, like bell metal, into gold by a certain combination. He has mercury here, and he also mentions about alchemy, which was practiced in middle ages, but actually goes back further, I think, to the Greeks or so. They’re always trying to make gold from other metals or whatever, and nobody seemed to succeed [Laughs], though there are many recipes there mentioned in the literature. And even today, there are people trying to do that [Laughs]. So it’s a rather strange phenomenon, this idea of trying to produce gold. On another level, of course, it also represents not so much a material thing, but how to transform a person into a better person, or how to produce spiritual life, etc. So that is the sense of this verse that is quoted by Sanatana Goswami.
So bell metal is changed into gold by a certain process. So similarly, a person who has not very good qualifications becomes dwija through the process of diksha. So here we have a transformation of a person who is, by his first nature, very low. Secondly, he becomes dwija, or second born by this process of diksha. And, of course, this dwija, it means second born. It could refer to a vaishya, kshatriya, or brahmana. Any of them becomes second born when they get the Brahma Gayatri mantra. So this is also a type of diksha. This is the Vedic diksha ceremony. And once you get this mantra, you’re qualified to study the Vedas. But the dwija also refers often to the topmost dwija, that is the brahmana. So that’s, we talk about dwijas, we often refer or we’re talking about brahmanas, not vaishyas [Laughs]. But in any case, the idea is that by that mantra, you become changed, just as base metal becomes gold.
So there’s a particular process to change the base metal into gold, which we don’t know about nowadays, but it produces this big change. Similarly, a person can change from a lower person with low qualities into a person with higher qualities, by the process of diksha, in which they get the Brahma Gayatri mantra. So, of course, we can ask, well, how is it possible that simply getting a mantra can transform a person? But that is the statement here. And that’s the general procedure. You could not study the Vedas, which means you don’t have qualification for the Vedas, unless you get the Brahma Gayatri mantra [Laughs]. So something happens when you get the mantra, you become qualified. But if you don’t have the mantra, no matter how intelligent you are, you can’t study the Vedas. If you get it, [Not clear] then you can study the Vedas. Some sort of transformation is there by the power or the magic of the Brahma Gayatri mantra.
Of course, from the Vaishnava point of view, we are not so interested in becoming a brahmana. Why should we become a brahmana? A brahmana is in the modes of nature. A brahmana is not necessarily a Vaishnava. So what’s the use of being a brahmana [Laughs]? Simply becoming a brahmana does not make you into a devotee as such. Mercy of a devotee makes you into a devotee. However, we can use the same analogy and say that, by pancharatrically speaking, by getting your mantra, your diksha mantra, 18 syllable Krishna mantra in our case, again you get transformed [Laughs]. Before that, you’re not qualified to worship the deity. After that, you’re qualified suddenly. How is that possible [Laughs]? So, some transformation is there again through getting the mantra. We can also take it on an even higher level. Let’s say, you take the name of the Lord, Nama Sankirtana is the highest process of all. So, if a low person, like a dog-eater, or a mleccha, or a chandala utters the holy name, he immediately becomes qualified to perform Vedic sacrifices [Laughs]. Again, magic [Laughs]. So, whether it is the Vedic Gayatri mantra, Brahma Gayatri mantra, whether it is the pancharatric mantra, it’s Krishna mantra, 18 syllable Krishna mantra, or whether it is Hare Krishna, they all do this transformation [Laughs] somehow or other. Yeah. So, in other words, we can say the mantra, Vedic mantra, pancharatric mantra, and the holy name are very, very powerful and they can also all carry out this process of transforming a person. But the Brahma Gayatri in itself does not produce a Vaishnava.
So, we have millions and millions of people who get the mantra in India. They’re not Vaishnavas. What are they? They’re brahmanas. And many of them are smarta brahmanas, which we don’t like [Laughs]. We criticize smarta brahmanas, but [Laughs] if they’re not Vaishnavas, many of them are smarta brahmanas, or Mayavadi Brahmanas, or whatever. So, simply getting that mantra does not make you into a Vaishnava in such. Of course, there are many brahmanas who are also Vaishnavas, but it’s different [Laughs]. So, at least it gives you some qualification to study the Vedas, and then maybe either go impersonal or personal, smarta or whatever. Those mantras, however, cannot be given to sudras. The Vedic mantra, Gayatri mantra, you don’t initiate sudras. So, there’s a little limitation there also. Those who are vaishyas, kshatriyas, brahmanas get the mantra and study the Vedas. Those who are sudras do not get the mantra, and are not allowed to study the Vedas. So, it’s a little bit limited also. Limited in who can get the mantra, and limited in what it produces. Okay, we can get you up to sattva guna eventually.
The Pancharatrika mantra, our 18-syllable Krishna mantra, is different, because anybody can get it, if the Guru so chooses to give him the mantra. He doesn’t have to be a brahmana, vaishya, kshatriya. He can be a sudra or he can be a mleccha. And if the Guru gives him the Vaishnava pancharatrika mantra, then he gets transformed. But his transformation also is a little different. He doesn’t just become a brahmana, he becomes a devotee [Laughs], Vaishnava [Laughs]. So, this is one of the definitions of a Vaishnava. One who actually gets the diksha mantra, he is a Vaishnava. If you don’t have the mantra, you’re not a Vaishnava [Laughs]. This is from the pancharatrika point of view. So that person who gets the mantra, pancharatrika mantra, then what is he qualified for as a Vaishnava? To worship the deity. So he can do archana. That’s exactly what we do. You get second initiation, you’re allowed to worship the deity. So we can say that pancharatrika mantra is superior, because it produces a Vaishnava, not just a brahmana.
Of course, the Vaishnava is superior to the brahmana. The brahmana in his ideal state is situated in sattva guna. The Vaishnava in his ideal state is nirguna, he’s beyond the material gunas. Bhagavad Gita says, Bhakti is beyond the gunas [Laughs]. So the Vaishnava is beyond the gunas. But also, that Vaishnava who is initiated with pancharatrika mantras, he can participate in any activity that a brahmana could do, because he is qualified beyond the brahmana. So these processes require, the Vedic one, requires a ceremony, which we call upanayanam, a samskara. And the pancharatrika system requires a ceremony we call diksha. So through the diksha ceremony, you get a mantra. And what does the mantra do? It gives you divya-jnanam and destroys your sin. And thus you’re transcendental to even the sattva guna. So that’s the theory behind pancharatrika diksha. So we can say it’s more powerful, because wider scope, anybody who takes the mantra, can get beyond the gunas. And the Brahma Gayatri mantra, only three upper varnas can get it, and they can get to sattva guna. They don’t become Vaishnavas. So the pancharatrika mantra is superior. However, the Bhagavatam also states that, and Caitanya Caritamrta also states that, the name of the Lord is superior to the mantra, the pancharatrika mantra. Why? Because like the pancharatrika mantra, the name is available to everybody. But you don’t even require the diksha. So we can give out Hare Krishna to everybody. We don’t say, I’m not going to give you my secret mantra of Hare Krishna, unless you get initiated by it. Don’t say that [Laughs]. Everybody can chant Hare Krishna [Laughs]. So it’s even more liberal.
Of course, then you’ll say, well, okay, it’s liberal, but it doesn’t have the same power as the secret, you know, diksha mantra, whatever. But not so. Bhagavatam also states that the dog-eater, okay, he’s not even in the varnashrama system. If he utters the name of the Lord even once, purely, he’s superior to the brahmana. So again, we get the same effect. Transcendental to the material world, beyond sattva guna, through simply chanting the name, which does not require even diksha ceremony. An added benefit is that it goes further than the mantras.
In the Brhad Bhagavatamrta, we have the story of Gopa Kumar. He got diksha. He had a secret mantra, Krishna mantra, ten-syllable Krishna mantra like Lord Caitanya. And he didn’t know what to do with it, but Guru has said chant it. Then the Guru didn’t give instructions or anything, disappeared [Laughs]. So the little boy, he was there in Vrindavan. He began chanting this mantra to himself all the time. And then he got very detached from the material world. He gave up family, gave up Vrindavan. He wandered around everywhere looking for Krishna, who was the subject of his mantra. Through this, then he progressed through the upper planetary systems. He went to even Brahmaloka. He went beyond Brahmaloka. He went to Shivaloka. He went beyond Shivaloka, and he got to Vaikuntha. And he was always chanting his mantra. And when he was in Vaikuntha, he was a little uncomfortable because, of course, it was all spiritual or whatever. But the form of Vishnu was not quite the same as what he imagined Krishna was, because he was chanting a Krishna mantra [Laughs]. So he was feeling a little uncomfortable.
And he was, of course, walking around with his cowherd boy dress from Vrindavan. And the people of Vaikuntha were looking at him and saying, you have to have four hands. You can’t do this [Laughs]. You’ve got to have all nice ornaments and crown and sankha, chakra [Laughs] to be very grand. You can’t come in front of Vishnu like that. You know, there’s a little poor cowherd boy. But he was not really interested in that. So he was a little disappointed. He was not really satisfied on seeing Vishnu. He saw Vishnu directly [Laughs]. So he’s kind of wondering what to do. Narada Muni came and then he said, well, you’ve been chanting your mantra and you got up this far, but you’re unsatisfied. That’s very rare even for me. It’s got something very unusual. The person is not satisfied with Vaikuntha. So you’re a very rare person. You’re longing for something else. You’re longing for Krishna. So it’s very, very rare. And then he says, you cannot get that Krishna by chanting your mantra anymore. You have to do Nama Sankirtana [Laughs]. So he starts doing Kirtan, chanting Krishna’s name. Then he ends up back in the earth, down on earth in Vrindavan. And then he sees Krishna and he goes to the spiritual world and he goes to Goloka.
So in other words, the name was even more powerful than the mantra because it got him to Goloka, whereas his mantra didn’t get him there. So in other words, the name is considered to be the yuga dharma, the process for this age. But we should not think that it is just because people are so fallen, they need easy process. Yes, that’s so. It is very liberal. You don’t have to have initiation. Anyone that chants even accidentally can get liberated, whatever. So it’s very, very powerful. You cannot chant your pancharatrika mantra accidentally because it’s not just one word. It’s a whole series of words and a secret. And so you don’t know the mantra at all unless a Guru gives it to you. So there’s no accidental chanting of that mantra. And after you get the mantra, there’s different rules for how you should chant it to get the proper effects. But the name of the Lord is very free. We don’t require all those conditions.
So, yes, it is suitable for the people of kali yuga in the fact that it is available. We don’t have to follow so many rules and regulations. We still get effect. But of course, if we want to get highest goal, Prema in Goloka, then we do have to follow some rules and regulations. So we do have to have some knowledge [Laughs]. So therefore, we do need to follow scripture. We do need to get Guru, etc. There’s a Siksha Guru, if not Diksha Guru for that. But the result is even greater than through the diksha mantra. That is, you get to Goloka and you have Prema for Krishna. So that’s the outstanding feature of this thing. It’s even greater than the Pancharatrsika mantra. Pancharatrika mantra makes you into Vaishnava and you go to Vaikuntha and whatever. But if you want Krishna in Vrindavan, then you have to do Harinama [Laughs]. So that’s the very, you know, unique quality of the name of Krishna.
So all of this is transformation. The Brahma Gayatri mantra by that process of upanayanam samskara transforms you into a dwija, magic [Laughs]. And the pancharatrika mantra can transform anybody in the varnashrama system or outside the varnashrama system into a Vaishnava, even more magic, higher.And the holy name can transform anybody in the material world into a Vaishnava and take them to Goloka. So all of this, of course, is transformation. The mantras, all of the mantras will destroy ignorance and destroy your material body. They can get you liberation. All the mantras also can get you a spiritual body. So you can get a spiritual body in the spiritual world by chanting your pancharatrika mantra. And similarly, by chanting the name of the Lord, you end up with a spiritual body in the spiritual world, and you serve Krishna eternally. So there’s a transformation from material body to spiritual body, ultimately.
So instead of concentrating and trying to make gold, iron into gold, which is material and ultimately useless [Laughs]. Better we transform ourself [Laughs] from a jiva who is covered by ignorance into a jiva who manifests a spiritual body in the spiritual world and enjoys serving Krishna in bliss eternally. So that’s the real transformation that should take place. So we can say that these ideas of alchemy, etc, maybe are more symbolic than actual because the real transformation is spiritual transformation. So in this way we have, we see the mantras are very, very powerful to do that. It can transform you. The counter-argument, of course, is you say this, but then what is the proof? We give a person a mantra, looks like he’s the same person. And even devotees, they get first initiation after, then they’re wondering, what happened? I still got my karma, everything’s still there [Laughs]. Guru’s supposed to take all my karmas, and I’m supposed to be transcendental, but I’m the same person [Laughs]. So, of course, if we think like that, this is, we can say, thinking the glories of the holy name are exaggeration or useless or whatever like that. So that’s an offense to the holy name.
And we see in the case of Ajamila, when he simply named his son Narayana with no devotion, all of his karmas were destroyed which is remarkable. So the actual, the power is there, but it may also not be visible to us. In the case of Ajamila, it didn’t look visible because it looked like he was the same sinful rascal as before up until his death [Laughs], in spite of the fact that all his karmas were gone. And it was so mystifying that even the Yama-dutas thought he was still full of karmas. They couldn’t see either [Laughs]. Only the Vishnu-dutas knew.
So we may not be able to see the effects of how people get transformed simply by the holy name. So we have the idea that the dog-eater suddenly is better than the brahmana and is qualified to do all the sacrifices. That sounds like impossible. You know, you take a low-class person, give him the holy name, and suddenly he’s better than the brahmana [Laughs]. It looks impossible, but actually, it’s actually what the scripture says, that all your karmas get destroyed. In order to do the sacrifice, you would have to be qualified as a dwija, technically. And the, you know, the mleccha is not qualified to even get the Brahma Gayatri mantra, but he chants the holy name and suddenly he’s better than the brahmana. So that’s the power of the holy name and it’s not exaggeration. And therefore, in our Sampradaya, we put less emphasis upon distinctions of varnas and ashramas, etc. Because we know the people chanting the holy name are automatically transcending everything.
And for convenience sake, they may follow the rules as a kshatriya or brahmana or a vaishya or sudra whatever but ultimately we know that, they are not part of the varna system. And contrarily, it’s also an offense to think that this is a sudra Vaishnava, or this is a mleccha Vaishnava, or this is a brahmana Vaishnava. That is putting material designations on the Vaishnava who’s actually beyond the whole system. So that’s considered to be offense to the devotees, Vaishnava aparadha. So we should try to understand the great power of chanting the holy name and how it transforms people. And we may not see how that transformation is working, but nevertheless it takes place.
Okay. Any question there?
Q & A :
1.) Hare Krishna Maharaj. Maharaj two questions. One is regarding Siksha Guru. Actually sometimes we use higher devotees, actually who is classified as Siksha Guru [Not clear].
So, Bhaktivinoda Thakur in Harinamas Cintamani says, yeah, all the devotees who are preaching the glories of the Lord are Siksha Gurus. That’s a very general category. Everybody, every devotee is pretty sure he’s a Siksha Guru because he’s teaching in that sense. But in a more restricted sense, like used by in Caitanya Caritamrta, where the Siksha Guru is non-different from Govinda Dev [Laughs], or in the Bhakti Sandarbha, when Jiva Goswami is describing the Siksha Guru and the Diksha Guru, there refers to a person you select among all the different devotees and you get special instructions from them for your guidance. And of course, you also give them, you know, special worship or respect. They’re giving you special teachings. You give them special respect. So we can say it’s a Siksha Guru who’s on a little higher level than the normal devotees preaching. So we can say similar to the Diksha Guru.
So in ISKCON, not everybody gives Diksha. So we kind of restrict it. And then we said, you have to be qualified like this, this, this, so many years practicing, so many years like this, no complaints about maybe you have to have a degree now in something, Bhakti Sastri or Bhakti Vaibhav or something [Laughs]. So we put all these restrictions on, you know, the level of a Diksha Guru or whatever. So there is some, let’s say, we can suppose that, that person, because he’s following all these qualifications, he’s on a certain level of advancement. It’s not absolute, but we can say probably more advanced than the others who are not in the movement so long, who have not been practicing so long, who haven’t studied so much, whatever. So similarly for the Siksha Guru, same thing applies, that we could have Siksha Gurus on different levels or whatever. And we try to select that Siksha Guru who is going to give us very prominent instructions. We’re choosing a person who is reliable, steady, advanced, and whatever and has deep knowledge of scripture. So that we choose as the, you know, when we’re talking about the Siksha Guru who’s non-different from Govinda Dev.
2.) So, when we [Not clear] Siksha Guru.
Yeah, it’s similar. Yeah, yeah. So, this idea about, you know, establishing a relationship through Diksha, fine. And then you shouldn’t reject the Diksha Guru unless there is some incorrigible downfall or something like that [Laughs]. Otherwise you don’t reject. Even if you don’t like him for some reason later on, whatever, you don’t reject him. He’s a Vaishnava or whatever, in good standing. So similarly for the Siksha Guru, we don’t reject or whatever. We may not have the same teaching from him later on. We may get teachings from someone else also, but we never reject for, you know, let’s say, unfounded reasons.
3.) The power of maha-mantra [Not clearly audible].
[Laughs] Yes and no [Laughs]. From the point of Harinama, it is kind of a formality, because we’re spending most of our time chanting Hare Krishna, and we spend a few minutes a day chanting these other mantras, and most people don’t even know the meaning of the mantras. So we’re getting our main spiritual results from chanting Hare Krishna, yeah. So in that sense, it is formality in the sense that, oh, I’ve also got Diksha. So everybody else got Diksha. I also got Diksha. So [Laughs] it’s like a status symbol in one sense [Laughs]. The other meaning, of course, is that, unless you take the Diksha, you cannot do Deity worship. And if you want to do Deity worship, then you have to take the Diksha. So it’s not so just a status symbol. There is a practical thing for doing Deity worship. Because when you offer items to the Deities, then you should chant those mantras that you get at the time of Diksha. And if you don’t chant the mantras, it’s not real worship and Krishna doesn’t accept it.
4.) What is the transformation [Not clear]?
Well, as I said, all these mantras transform. The Brahma Gayatri can transform you and bring you to sattva guna, and of course, ultimately it can get you to liberation, or maybe up to Vishnu. The Pancharatrika mantras can take anybody, not even if they’re, you know, even if they’re sudra or mleccha, that can get you to Krishna, even. And the Harinama, of course, does that also. But it’s easier. The Harinama is more powerful, as I said. Quicker, easier.
Devotee: Gayatri mantra is [Not clear].
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah. Whatever those things can do, the pancharatrika or the Vedic mantras, Harinama can also do. But more, as I said, because Gopa kumar couldn’t get to Goloka until he did Harinama [Laughs].
5.) Hare Krishna Maharaj. I’ve heard before that the Pancha-tattva mantra, Jaya Sri Krishna Caitanya is more powerful than the maha-mantra. So then why do we actually chant the maha-mantra?
[Laughs] Sri Krishna Caitanya [Laughs]. I think some devotees asked Prabhupada that. And then he kind of rejected that, because this is the teaching of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Our main thing is Hare Krishna [Laughs]. Of course, we also accept that Lord Caitanya is non-different from Krishna and therefore we worship Him, we chant Pancha-tattva mantra, etc. So, but Lord Caitanya taught the ultimate goal is to have madhurya rasa, Radha Krishna etc. And to do that, He introduced Hare Krishna mantra. So we follow that instruction, in spite of the fact that we may have more attraction for Pancha-tattva or Lord Caitanya, still, we do follow the instructions of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
6.) And also I’ve heard that if we don’t chant the Pancha–tattva mantra before we chant the Maha Mantra, we won’t get the full benefit of the Maha Mantra. So specifically in outreach, when we do outreach kirtans, we don’t really necessarily chant the Pancha–tattva with new people. So are they still getting the benefit of chanting the Maha Mantra?
Yeah. That, there is no, scripturally, there’s no rule like that. Prabhupada also, as far as I recall, didn’t make a statement like that. But we do know from Caitanya Caritamrta, that in order to approach Radha and Krishna, we have to go through Lord Caitanya because He is the merciful form of Radha and Krishna available for the people of kali yuga. So He is our doorway to get to Radha-Krishna. So somehow or other, we have to worship Caitanya Mahaprabhu before we worship Radha-Krishna. And that is also represented when we worship the deity. If you’re worshiping Radha-Krishna, you cannot just directly go to Radha-Krishna. You have [Laughs] to worship Gauranga first [Laughs]. So that’s there. But whether we want to chant the mantra or not, that’s another issue.
Devotee: That’s to get the full effects.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: But in general, it’s just people uplifting them to get them attracted. Okay, we will just chant Hare Krishna.
7.) Thank you for class, Maharaj. In the example of Gopa Kumar’s journey to Goloka Vrindavan, when he finally reaches Goloka Vrindavan and meets Krishna, it seems at least that they already had an established relationship. And you can see that by the way Krishna greets him, you know, it’s as if he was a long-lost friend. But then we’ll see there’s a fall of the jiva argument. Some people say the living entities are eternally conditioned. They were never in the spiritual world in the first place. So like scripturally, what is, does that actually explain either way, which is true?
Well, of course, Gopa Kumar, it’s interesting because Gopa Kumar was chanting a Krishna mantra, and then he went to the spiritual world. And our Acharyas generally, they’re emphasizing madhurya rasa, but Gopa Kumar got sakhya rasa [Laughs] which sounds a little strange in one sense. But from the very beginning, he more or less seemed to have this attitude of treating Krishna as a friend and sakhya rasa. And that continued when he was, you know, thinking, where is Krishna? And he’s thinking of a friend, etc. So based on that, then it was natural that when he actually met Krishna, that’s what happened. And that was satisfying to him. So from the point of view of sadhana, when we’re in the material world, then instruction is given that according to your type of worship, that’s what you achieve.
If you worship Krishna, you realize Krishna. If you worship Rama, you go to Rama. If you worship Shiva, you go to Shiva. It’s very natural. And if you’re worshipping Krishna, then if you worship Krishna in madhurya rasa, you expect to end up in madhurya rasa. If you worship in sakhya rasa, you get sakhya rasa or vatsalya rasa, etc. So according to your sadhana, you advance in Bhava stage. You begin to realize that particular sthayi bhava, that particular relationship with a particular rasa. And it was matured in Prema. So that’s from our point of view. When you attain that status, then you’re actually in the spiritual world with Prema. And in the spiritual world, there is no time. So therefore, you always have the relationship. Because there’s no time when you didn’t have it [Laughs].
So it’s a little different from our conceptions in the material world or your thinking. In the spiritual world, well, previously, I was here. Now I’m there. There’s no such thought in the spiritual world. You’re always with Krishna. And you always have that rasa. So in that sense, your very nature is like that. So it doesn’t matter where you come from or whatever. And even the other people, they’re not looking at you say, Oh, he came from the material world. We don’t want to talk to him because he’s an inferior Sakhi or something or a Sakha whatever [Laughs] like that [Laughs] you know. There’s no differentiation there. Everybody’s eternally engaged with Krishna in particular service. And it’s all perfect.
8.) All the symptoms of a karma free person?
What are the symptoms of?
Devotee: A person who is free from karma.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Free from karma? Oh.
Devotee: Because we are conditioned and how would we know that there is a time when we are free of karma?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah. If one is completely free of karma, one is qualified for liberation. No more birth and death in the material world. Once you destroy all your karma, it doesn’t come back. So then if one’s free of karma, no more suffering. So we see in like even the second chapter of the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna describes this sthita prajna, one who is situated in knowledge. So he in all situations, he is not disturbed, whether it is situations for joy or sorrow, whatever, doesn’t consider it anything. He is completely detached from all situations of the material world. So he’s situated in atma and Brahman at that point. So that’s liberation stage, freedom from karma.
9.) Thank you for the class Maharaj. My question is regarding Nama Sankirtana and Pancharatrika. So Nama Sankirtana takes you to the Krishna loka. But Pancharatrika helps us to develop the relationship with Krishna better in a bhakti way. So do they complement each other, these two processes, or they are exclusive alike?
Well, in one sense, Harinama includes everything. So it’s complete in itself.
Devotee: It’s very hard to build up the relationship when you just chant.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, the perfection of chanting is to realize that Krishna is non-different from His name. So therefore, we’re chanting and it’s non-different from Krishna. So this is the particular way of worship in kali yuga [Laughs], not through the deity, which requires more qualification, through this easier process. And though we may say, well, you know, I can’t concentrate on the form of the Lord because this is a sound or whatever, nevertheless, this is the easiest approach for most people. So therefore, it’s called the yuga dharma. So whatever you accomplish by deity worship or any other process is also included within the name. Of course, in general, we don’t reject the deity worship and most of the devotees do deity worship or atleast they come to the temple or whatever. So it is, we commonly don’t just chant the holy name. We combine that with other processes like hearing Bhagavatam, deity worship, living in the holy dham etc, so, sadhu sanga etc.
10.) Another question, sorry. What lesson can we derive from this opulence that we study in these lower planetary systems? What kind of lesson we should learn from it?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : What lesson we learn? Well.
Devotee: And how do we apply in our life?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Lesson we learn is we should not be so foolish,
Devotees: [Laugh].
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: To desire such enjoyment, you know, getting all the gold you want from the rivers or whatever, or, you know, enjoying all sorts of sex life in Atala loka [Laughs] or whatever. It’s all temporary, all useless. Also, of course, it’s all in dark, tamasa. So we have to reject it. So it’s all therefore rejection. As we see the story of the forest enjoyment is spoken here with this canto. Again, we give us a disgust for the whole material world.
Devotee: But for neophyte, it’s very hard when he reads this. For neophyte devotee, it’s very hard means to go through these opulences and say, so what’s the difference? We are, these people also here, right? Because usually we say, if we have success, we say it’s a blessing kind of thing, isn’t it? Control. Happiness is like we are blessed.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah. Well, of course, it does require a little bit of intelligence to read the scriptures and understand what they’re saying. But through all of this, we see it’s all temporary and ultimately subject to destruction. So here we see the Sudarshana Chakra’s coming along and all the women have abortions because of [Laughs] fear of the Sudarshana Chakra of death. So it’s not completely blissful as it looks like on the surface. They are subjected to pain and death also and they fear it.
11.) Hare Krishna Maharaj. Dandavat pranam. Maharaj, once I have heard that the Harinama maha-mantra is enough as an initiation. Harinama maha-mantra that is enough. First initiation is enough. It can elevate one to the Vaishnava stage.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Is 1st initiation enough?
Devotee: Yeah. And following the instruction of the spiritual master, a bonafide spiritual master, that is enough. Brahman initiation is not necessary.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, as we said, if you want to do deity worship, then you have to take the second initiation. If you don’t want to do it, that would kind of be optional from the practical point of view, because Harinama gives everything. From the tradition point of view, then most of the people did take Diksha and get the mantra, even if they didn’t worship the deity. And deity worship, of course, is part of our sampradaya. We see all the Goswamis had deities. So it’s been a tradition also. So most of the people participating in Lord Caitanya’s movement did take Diksha. So from that point of view, then we can also follow the same, you know, custom. Though, as I said, we’re not putting so much emphasis upon those mantras as we are on Hare Krishna. So that becomes, Hare Krishna becomes more important for us.
Devotee: But Prabhupada, at one stage, only this doubt came in mind, because Prabhupada at one stage has told this, the first one, that at this stage, Harinama maha-mantra is enough. But in a letter to one of his disciples in 1972, I was reading one of the letters Prabhupada was writing to his disciple in New York at the very early stage in 1972, I think, and he was telling that 2nd, I mean Brahman initiation is very important.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: [Laughs] Yeah. So we have two statements by Prabhupada. In one letter he says second initiation is real initiation. In another letter he says first initiation is more important. So we get contradiction [Laughs]. How do we solve the contradiction? So then we can argue. This letter is bogus, that one’s bogus, well, we can’t say that. So then why did Prabhupada make two different statements? Did he forget he made the other statement? He says that, we can’t say that either. So one way of solving it is that, from the point of view of scriptural definition of Diksha, the second is the Diksha. And it was considered such by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. He didn’t call the first one initiation at all. Only the second was called Diksha. Before that, they didn’t have a first initiation at all, of our ceremony even. So that was kind of introduced with Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, he didn’t call the first one initiation, but we have first initiation with Srila Prabhupada. So in any case, getting the mantra is the thing that transforms you in Pancharatra. So that’s what initiation is. So therefore, in that sense, it’s the real initiation. However, from the point of view of Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s movement of yuga dharma, chanting the holy name is more important [Laughs]. And therefore, even if you don’t have the second initiation, if at least you’re chanting the holy name, that is much more important for us. So therefore, first initiation, which introduces you to chanting, etc, is more important. So that’s how we can resolve the issue.
Devotee: And in Caitanya Caritamrta, there is no mention of his disciples, either Rupa Goswami or Sanatana Goswami. How initiation was given? It’s not mentioned.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, Rupa and Sanatana apparently didn’t get. He gave them names, but that’s it. He never gave them mantra. Lord Caitanya did not give them, anybody mantra, as far as I know. It’s not mentioned anywhere. He gave mantra to anyone, so He didn’t give Diksha to anyone. And so Rupa and Sanatana apparently didn’t get Diksha. Same with Haridasa Thakur, we don’t find Diksha as such. Who else didn’t get Diksha? Or who did get Diksha? I think Gopala Bhatta Goswami got Diksha. He also gave Diksha. But Rupa and Sanatana didn’t give Diksha to anybody because they didn’t have Diksha themselves.
Devotee: Thank you Maharaj Hare Krishna, thank you.
12.) Hare Krishna Maharaj. In ISKCON, most of the devotees keep deities at home like Gaura Nitai deities or Radha Krishna deities, Jagannath, Baladeva, Subhadra. So in order to qualify to worship the deities even at home, we should have a brahmana initiation first?
[Laughs] Yeah, technically from pancharatrika point of view, yes [Laughs]. And then from a pancharatrika person would say, if you don’t have the initiations, it’s all useless worship. It’s like idol worship [Laughs]. That’s what they’ll say [Laughs]. From the point of view of Harinama, of course, we’re a little more relaxed. And it says, even if you don’t, well, okay, in your house, no problem. As far as temple, then of course, we do insist that the people who are called second initiated are the persons who can worship the deity.
Devotee: The opposite could also be true, because if the Harinama is more powerful and it’s not required, then the Harinama itself qualifies you to worship the deity.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, not pancharatrika of course [Laughs].
Devotees: [Laugh].
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: It’s Lord Caitanya’s movement [Laughs].
13.) Thank you for your wonderful class. The process of transformation to the spiritual world appears to be a long process, probably over several lifetimes. How to maintain motivation through this long process? What are the easy ones on the path to keep us inspired? Thank you Maharaj.
Well, from our point of view, maybe it’s long, because one life is long [Laughs]. So two lives longer, etc. From the point of view of looking at our history in the material world, it’s very short, because we were here from the beginning of Brahma’s lifetime, which was a long time ago. 50 years of his life has gone by like that. And we were also in the previous universe, in the previous universe, in the previous universe. So we have unending births in the material world. So if we take two or three lifetimes, there’s actually nothing from our point of view. So we should be a little patient as well, and have trust or faith that the process and the mercy of Krishna will continue for us. That’s all. We should have that faith that will continue. And then Krishna will give us the result when He so sees fit.
14.) Maharaj, what is the lesson to be learned from when we see that many great devotees, they have advanced very much compared to speaking for myself. But then we see they left the movement, they fall down. So what’s the lesson for us to learn from this? I mean, we see Brahma and Shiva and okay, this is pastime. But we’ve seen our sampradaya and some other sampradaya as well. There’s some great sannyasi, renunciant, practicing 50 years, they left everything and they went back to become iron again.
So the lesson we learn is similar to what we see with Bharat who got to Bhava stage, which is much more advanced than any of us [Laughs]. And then he fell down. He fell down so far that he became a deer and he stopped worshipping the Lord completely. So he gave up Bhakti completely and he worshipped a deer and he became a deer. Of course, because of advancement, then Krishna arranged him to get Prema in his next lifetime. So for us, that example, and of course, examples in the present, they will show us that we can advance in devotional service. But at the same time, there is always the chance that we can fall from that position as long as we don’t have Prema. Even if we have Bhava, there’s possibility of fall down. However, even if we do fall down, it’s not a loss, because Krishna says, whatever you’ve accrued is there permanently for you. So next life, you can continue where you left off or whatever. The only thing we should maybe learn from this, the other point we should learn from this is that Bharat fell because of aparadha. That kind of reduced his taste for the Lord and then transformed into a taste for a deer instead. So therefore, we should be aware of aparadha in any stage we’re at, because it can begin to destroy the bhakti, weaken the bhakti or whatever, until the point that we have no taste for that, we can leave. So we should be careful of aparadhas, especially Vaishnava aparadhas.
15.) In case of Bharat Maharaj, could it be the association because in forest, he didn’t have any association, much association. Could that be also one of the reasons?
Yeah, it can be. Of course, he was practicing as a vanaprastha [Laughs]. So therefore, as a vanaprastha, you don’t take association as such, but that’s also another reason. But ultimately, you know, he had no association, but he had no aparadha, then he would not fall [Laughs]. So why did he fall? Because there was no bad association as such, except the deer [Laughs] and that became his bad association. But why he became attracted to the deer? So, it’s explained that some previous aparadha in the previous lifetime kind of disturbed him, and this caused his fall down.
16.) Maharaj, with regard to prabhuji’s comments about two different letters that Srila Prabhupada wrote to two different people with different instructions, when Srila Prabhupada’s writing to someone, he’s writing to that person, not the whole society. So he’s giving specific instructions just like a parent with three or four children doesn’t give the same instruction to every child.
Yeah. That’s true.
Devotee: They give tailor-made instructions.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, yeah. So what we learned from that, be careful of the letters [Laughs].
Devotees: [Laugh].
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: We don’t know who he’s teaching to on those letters, so he gives different instructions [Laughs].
Devotee: It’s not like it’s a child, because in one sense it is, but in another sense, he’s giving to all as well. It depends on time, place, circumstance, because they are general instructions for all his disciples also.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, so we can’t really judge which is a general one, which is a specific instruction sometimes also. Maybe you have to look at the whole of history of the letters with that person [Laughs] or whatever as well [Laughs].
Devotees: [Laugh].
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: [Laughs] Okay. Hare Krishna.
Devotees: Grantharaj Srimad Bhagavatam ki jai!!! HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj ki jai!!! Srila Prabhupada ki jai!!! Nitai Gaura Premanande Hari Haribol!!