Srimad Bhagavatam – 3.22.1~2| HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj | 18 Mar 2025 | New Govardhana, Australia
ŚB 3.22.1
मैत्रेय उवाच
एवमाविष्कृताशेषगुणकर्मोदयो मुनिम् ।
सव्रीड इव तं सम्राडुपारतमुवाच ह ॥ १ ॥
maitreya uvāca
evam āviṣkṛtāśeṣa-
guṇa-karmodayo munim
savrīḍa iva taṁ samrāḍ
upāratam uvāca ha
Translation
Śrī Maitreya said: After describing the greatness of the Emperor’s manifold qualities and activities, the sage became silent, and the Emperor, feeling modesty, addressed him as follows.
ŚB 3.22.2
मनुरुवाच
ब्रह्मासृजत्स्वमुखतो युष्मानात्मपरीप्सया ।
छन्दोमयस्तपोविद्यायोगयुक्तानलम्पटान् ॥ २ ॥
manur uvāca
brahmāsṛjat sva-mukhato
yuṣmān ātma-parīpsayā
chandomayas tapo-vidyā-
yoga-yuktān alampaṭān
Translation
Manu replied: To expand himself in Vedic knowledge, Lord Brahmā, the personified Veda, from his face created you, the brāhmaṇas, who are full of austerity, knowledge and mystic power and are averse to sense gratification.
Purport
The purpose of the Vedas is to propagate the transcendental knowledge of the Absolute Truth. The brāhmaṇas were created from the mouth of the Supreme Person, and therefore they are meant to spread the knowledge of the Vedas in order to spread the glories of the Lord. In Bhagavad-gītā also Lord Kṛṣṇa says that all the Vedas are meant for understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is especially mentioned here (yoga-yuktān alampaṭān) that brāhmaṇas are full of mystic power and are completely averse to sense gratification. Actually there are two kinds of occupations. One occupation, in the material world, is sense gratification, and the other occupation is spiritual activity — to satisfy the Lord by His glorification. Those who engage in sense gratification are called demons, and those who spread the glorification of the Lord or satisfy the transcendental senses of the Lord are called demigods. It is specifically mentioned here that the brāhmaṇas are created from the face of the cosmic personality, or virāṭ-puruṣa. Similarly, the kṣatriyas are said to be created from His arms, the vaiśyas are created from His waist, and the śūdras are created from His legs. Brāhmaṇas are especially meant for austerity, learning and knowledge and are averse to all kinds of sense gratification.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj :
So here we have a description of the four Varnas produced from the universal form, this is kind of a common feature of the universal form. The universal form creates all the planetary systems. So we have Satya Loka on the top and Patala Loka at the bottom on the feet. And we have the elements on the body and similarly we have among human beings, we have the four Varnas situated on the body of the Lord. So the Brahmanas are at the head and the Sudras are at the feet. So, in these descriptions we see there is some sort of hierarchy from topmost, the head being superior and the bottom being inferior. So we have the topmost planets and the lowest planets or the subtle elements and the gross elements and then we have the highest caste, the Brahmana and the lowest caste, the Sudra as parts of the body.
So of course, we have all sorts of living entities, but the human being is considered to be the best among them, and then the human beings are classed again, subdivided from superior to inferior. Of course, if we examine this, people will get a little insulted by saying there’s inferior human beings and superior human beings, because everybody’s greater, equal, etc. But we do have to face the fact that, there are gunas in material nature and everything in the world is affected by those gunas. And if there’s a prominence of Sattvaguna, that is superior and if there’s a prominence of Tamoguna, that is inferior and of course Rajas in the middle. Of course, we don’t get always pure Sattva or pure Tamas or Rajas, it’s always a mixture but by prominence then we can say that those who are prominently Sattva would be the Brahmanas and prominently Tamasic, they would be the Sudras. So, in that sense, there is superiority and inferiority according to qualities.
And then, of course, we see in society itself, some people are normal and say law-abiding citizens and productive and others are criminals and unproductive and destructive. So obviously, we find some are superior, some are inferior in that sense. At the same time, we also understand that everything is changeable. So therefore, a person who is in Tamoguna can also modify and improve and similarly, one who’s in Sattva can also degrade himself, possible. So nothing is so fixed. Nevertheless, in the Varnashrama system, we do have, we can say, relatively fixed classifications [Laughs] and therefore, persons by birth are Sudra, Vaishya, Kshatriya or Brahmana. Now, it’s a convenient system, we just go by birth. If your mother and father were nice, you’re going to be nice [Laughs]. And if you’re a criminal, your children will be criminal or whatever or Tamasic or whatever. So, there’s a natural tendency to classify in that way, families and whatever. But, of course, it’s not absolute also. And so, people from the lowest families sometimes become best and people from the best families become the worst. That’s there also.
But as a generalization, we have a caste system in which they classify people and it was convenient, because in this way, they were able to regulate productivity of the society by assigning certain occupations to certain Varnas. And everybody needs to work, everybody has to be productive. So, therefore, we have different types of work for the people in the different Gunas. So, the people who do all the heavy work, those are the Sudras. People who like to make money, those are the Vaishyas [Laughs]. People who like to boss over everybody else and rule everybody else are the Kshatriyas. And those who are intellectuals and like to think a lot, those are the Brahmanas [Laughs]. And we’ll see that in any society of the world, even if they’re not in the Varnashrama system, there’s a classification like that. We’ll have the intellectuals, we’ll have the ruling class, we’ll have the merchants, we’ll have the general population who work. So, in that sense, the Varnashrama system is nothing new.
What is unique about that Varnashrama system is, this is created by the Supreme Lord. But, of course, that wouldn’t make a difference, since it’s out there in the material world and other societies as well, which the Lord ultimately creates. But, the rules of the Varnashrama are particular. And in that sense, we have here, Manu talking about the Virat purusha, form of the Supreme Lord producing Brahmanas, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, etc. So, the Brahmana is defined by the rules he follows. And similarly, the Kshatriya and the Vaishya and the Sudra. So, there’s a set of rules for everybody. And this becomes Sva-dharma. Everybody has their dharma to follow. So, the Brahmana follows his dharma, Sudra follows his dharma. What is that dharma? It’s defined by scripture. Things you do, things you don’t do [Laughs]. So, in this way, then it all comes from the Supreme Lord, as we see here from the Virat purusha.
Or, of course, we find teachings of the Lord. Krishna teaches Bhagavad Gita. Other forms of the Lord are teaching other things. But, they always include this idea of dharma and the four Varnas. So, we can say that this social system, and also political system that is set up, is more precise than the natural system we see in other countries of the world. It is regulated by specific laws coming from scripture, which comes from the Supreme Lord. And thus, Bhaktivinoda Thakur says, this is a perfect system because it comes from the Supreme Lord.
Perfect because its goal is different. Most societies will base their social structure on, let’s say productivity, material prosperity. Let us have a stable society so everybody can eat and prosper, etc. material goal. That is also one of the purposes of this Varnashrama system. Everybody should engage, everybody should support themselves, everybody should get enough to eat, everybody has a level of happiness, etc. But, there’s another goal, which is a little bit indirect, but nevertheless, because this system is created by the Lord, it is not complete in itself [Laughs]. This system is part of a bigger system.
So the Varnashrama system is Karma Yoga, and it fits below Jnana Yoga, Astanga Yoga, and Bhakti Yoga. But they’re all related. So, the whole purpose of that Varnashrama system is to lead people, as I said, they can change, but it’s a little slow. So over many lifetimes, a person can elevate himself from tamas all the way up to sattva, over many lifetimes by following the rules. So that is the purpose of the rules and why it’s scientific, because you follow your rules at the bottom, you get purified, and then gradually you rise up until you get to the top by following rules. What to avoid – sins to avoid, do pious activities, etc. Gradually elevate yourself through the gunas over many lifetimes till you can go to sattva. And in sattva, you become Brahmana. And what is described here is the Brahmana is austere, he has knowledge, he has mystic powers, he has a verse to sense gratification. So the Brahmana is the one who’s qualified to get beyond the system. In other words, the Brahmana is qualified for liberation [Laughs]. So therefore, he practices Jnana Yoga and Astanga Yoga and then get out of the material system. So, in other words, the whole purpose of the system is elevate your sattva, and then we have another yoga, Jnana Yoga and Astanga Yoga, to get you out of the material world. So, in that sense, it’s superior to any material social system, because it has a spiritual goal. And of course, beyond that, we have bhakti. So, in this way, the Supreme Lord arranges for even the most unqualified people to elevate themselves over many lifetimes and then get released from the material world. And end this whole process of rebirth. So that’s one of the goals of the Supreme Lord. So this system is superior to other systems.
Unfortunately, it takes a long time. And even in the modern world, people do recognize it takes a long time for people to change. Very difficult for people to change. And especially if you’re in the lower gunas, more difficult, because they don’t want to listen [Laughs]. They don’t have intelligence or whatever. Very difficult for people to change. But Krishna recognizes that it is possible for people to change. So, it’s difficult, therefore, he makes a gradual system. Gradually, over many births, you rise up in Tamoguna [Laughs]. Then you go through Rajaguna, many births, and then you get to Sattva Guna. So it’s a gradual improvement of character. Because he recognizes people are difficult. They don’t want to change. So, that’s the system [Laughs]. So, in one sense, it’s practical. It recognizes the stubborn nature of the jiva to stay in the material world and not listen to anybody and try to get his own enjoyment. So, this is kind of a tricky system by which, without knowing it, you get elevated gradually until you become very intelligent as a brahmana and you begin to seek out spiritual life. So, that’s the system.
And therefore, it’s presented as part of the Bhagavatam, Bhagavad Gita and part of the Vedas. There’s a whole section of the Vedas. We have four, each Veda, there’s four Vedas. Each Veda has four parts. One part is karma. Whole part. No, two parts are karma, actually. Brahmanas and Arnyakas, it’s all karma. Karma yoga, karma kanda. So, half of the Veda, each Veda is karma. One section, which is much smaller, is jnana kanda. That’s Upanishads. So, each Veda has a few Upanishads attached to it. They’re not so big. And then we have, of course, the big section, upasana kanda. That’s the verses glorifying Vishnu and Shiva and all sorts of devatas. So, half of the Vedas is karma kanda [Laughs]. This system to elevate people in the material world until you’re qualified for jnana. So, it’s there. And that’s what Krishna also praises in Chapter 3 of Bhagavad Gita, the process of karma and worshipping devatas and elevating yourself in the material world [Laughs].
Now, the negative point about all this is that it’s also mentioned by Krishna at the end of the Bhagavad Gita, He says, forget all this dharma. Forget karma yoga, jnana yoga, Astanga yoga, and just do bhakti. So, why? In the 12th chapter of Bhagavad Gita, Krishna actually explains when Arjuna asked, what should I do? Go for jnana? And, of course, do karma yoga to get to jnana? Or should I just do bhakti? And then Krishna says, it’s easier to do bhakti. It is quicker to do bhakti. So, we have this system, and it’s there in the Vedas, whatever. But then, Krishna says, it’s not very practical.
So, why is it there at all? The answer is that the system was there in previous yugas. Because the yugas rotate throughout the day of Brahma. But, in Kali Yuga, particularly our Kali Yuga, that whole system of Varna and Ashrama, the Manus here, directing societies, disappeared.
And it’s described in the 9th canto, how the Vaivasvata Manu started as a dynasty. It’s described in the 8th canto. And then, the 9th canto, through the Sun Dynasty and the Moon Dynasty, from Vaivasvata Manu coming out, gradually, gradually, everything dissipates, and we get Kali Yuga, and Sudras assassinate the king [Laughs], and whatever. We get all sorts of problems. And the final descendant of Manu gives up, and he runs away to the Himalayas. And he’s hiding. But it’s required that the descendant of Manu rules. He is the king. And he’s empowered by the Supreme Lord. So, that’s how the system goes on through each Manvantara, all way through the day of Brahma. These empowered kings, rule in the dynasty of Manu, and they establish this whole system with all the varnas, ashrams, etc. But, unfortunately, in our Kali Yuga, Manu’s descendant has given up. He [not clear] retired early. Of course, he doesn’t give up completely, because when Satya comes again, he’ll reappear and say, here I am, and he’ll establish the system again [Laughs]. But he’s kind of given up for our Kali Yuga. So, we don’t even have a king there to institute this system and keep the Brahmanas at the top and the Sudras at the bottom, and make sure everybody’s following. So, it’s very difficult. And, of course, people in Kali Yuga themselves are not very qualified. Everybody is like a Sudra by birth. So, it’s difficult to have all these classes clearly distinguished. So, that is why Krishna says, forget this whole system.
Sarva-dharman–parityajya. Give up all dharmas and just surrender. Just do bhakti.
Much easier, much quicker, and it does not depend upon this system. So, therefore, we should understand that when Krishna is talking about Varnashrama system in Bhagavad Gita and here, it is there, but it’s not that he’s telling us, you must do this now [Laughs]. Because Krishna says the opposite in Bhagavad Gita. Give up all dharmas. Just do bhakti.
So, therefore, the main emphasis we have is the process of devotional service. That’s our main process. And, of course, we can do elements of you know, Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Astanga Yoga, etc. It’s all secondary to support this bhakti yoga.
So, what is special about bhakti yoga? As I said, Krishna says in chapter 12 of Bhagavad Gita, it is quicker. It is easier. But why? Krishna produced this system also. He produces Jnana and Yoga. So, why this is better? All made by Krishna. It’s all from Krishna. But, if we look closely, we’ll find out that all of these systems belong to the material world. So, Varnashrama system emerges from Tamo and Rajaguna. And Jnana and Astanga Yoga arise from Sattva. And this is directly stated in 11th Canto by Krishna. Jnana Yoga is Sattva, comes out of Sattva. So, they belong to the Gunas, actually. All these systems. Of course, Krishna is using the Gunas and purifying us, but, nevertheless, their origin is the Gunas. So, they can purify you, but purify you to some extent.
What about Bhakti? Does Bhakti arise from the Gunas? And Krishna says, No [Laughs]. Bhakti arises from Krishna. It’s spiritual energy. Not in the Gunas at all. So, it is very distinct from all of the systems, Bhakti Yoga. So, if we practice Bhakti Yoga, which is beyond the Gunas, Nirguna, coming from Krishna, filled with his mercy, then, very easy to surpass the Gunas. You don’t have to fight with the Gunas. It’s a superior energy coming to us. So, that is why it is said that a person who practices Bhakti Yoga is beyond the Gunas. Samatitya, he goes beyond the Gunas by practicing Bhakti Yoga. Because it doesn’t belong to the Gunas at all [Laughs]. So, very, very different system from Karma, Jnana, or Astanga Yoga. Very, very different. Very different from this whole system of Varnas and Ashramas which belong to the Gunas. It’s of course, in Nectar of devotion, there Rupa Goswami says that actually Bhakti Yoga is the Hladini and Samvit Shaktis of Krishna. Part of his internal energy. Therefore, very, very different from these material processes. And, thus, more powerful. So, that is why process of Bhakti is easier and quicker. Because it’s Krishna’s energy. Of course, we can say that ultimately it means Krishna is more merciful.
In Nectar of devotion, Rupa Goswami points out that Krishna is very attracted to his devotees. And that’s represented in the sixth quality, unique quality, Krishna Akarshani. Bhakti attracts Krishna. And we can say, well, what about, isn’t Krishna produces Varnashrama system and Karma Yoga. He produces Jnana Yoga. Isn’t he attracted to that? Of course, he makes it, but he is attracted and controlled by Bhakti. So, therefore, Bhakti is very special. It’s all produced by Supreme Lord, but Bhakti is internal energy of Krishna. Very, very special. So, therefore, it controls Krishna. Radha is controlling Krishna. So, Bhakti controls Krishna. So, very, very special process. So, if one practices Bhakti Yoga, what happens? We get the mercy of Krishna. I think we have the picture there in Bhagavad Gita of Krishna and Garuda coming down to the ocean of samsara and rescuing the Jiva [Laughs]. So, Krishna is attracted to the devotees. He likes to give mercy to the devotees. And Krishna, in Bhagavatam says, “I’m not attracted to Jnana and Yoga and Sankhya and Varna and Ashrama and all these things. I’m attracted to Bhakti.” So, that’s why it’s so simple and quick and easy because it comes from Krishna Himself and He displays His mercy to the devotees who practice it. That He’s attracted to the Bhakti that a person shows.
And, therefore, we have examples of people who are not even practicing pure Bhakti and people who are not even practicing Bhakti get mercy. So, Ajamila gets mercy. He’s not a devotee but it’s only good luck [Laughs] he chants the name of Narayana [Laughs] . So, that is enough to destroy all of his karmas. So, he gets the mercy of the Lord just by chanting the name of the Lord even without devotion. It’s like indirect Bhakti. Even that is powerful. And if we have Bhakti but it is mixed Bhakti as in the case of Gajendra, he is chanting to get rid of his suffering from getting the crocodile bite or whatever. Even then, the Lord is merciful and comes down and slays the crocodile. So, even for those practicing mixed Bhakti, the Lord is very, very merciful. And we will not see the Lord coming down if you’re doing sacrifices and whatever like this [Laughs]. Or if you’re doing yoga, the Lord doesn’t come down at all. In fact, it is said the yogi can practice for millions of years meditating or whatever but he will never see the Lord. The Lord will not appear to him and show his form at all. He gets to see a ray from the toenail. A little bit of light from his toenail. That’s all he gets to see. But for Gajendra, the Lord came down and showed his form and he was not even practicing pure Bhakti. So, what to speak of pure Bhakti? So, if it’s accidental Bhakti as in the case of Ajamila, if it is mixed Bhakti as in the case of Gajendra, the Lord is very merciful.
So, if we practice pure Bhakti, of course, the Lord is even more merciful. So, what is that special mercy that we get from practicing pure Bhakti? So, the answer is, we get Prema. If we do accidental Bhakti, we can get destroy karmas and get liberation. If we do mixed Bhakti, yes, we can see the Lord and we can advance somewhat. But, if we do pure Bhakti, we get Prema. That’s the distinction. All Bhakti is good or is merciful to all the devotees, but he bestows the best thing to those practicing pure Bhakti. So, that is why at the very beginning of Nectar of devotion, the very definition of Bhakti is given and that means pure Bhakti. You practice pure Bhakti, you can enter into the ocean of Rasa, Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu. If you practice pure Bhakti, Uttama Bhakti and he defines it exactly for us. So, we begin our sadhana with that and we end up with ocean of Rasa. So, Bhakti is very, very special. We get easier, quicker and we get highest result.
Other processes, we don’t get that far. If you do Karma Yoga, follow Varnashrama very nicely, you can raise yourself in the material world. But even then, it is subject to problems. We see the example of King Nrga, trying to do all of his karmas nicely and donate cows and whatever. What happens? he has to go to hell and become a lizard [Laughs]. Because he made a mistake. Of course, he is trying to elevate himself in the material world and he ends up suffering as a lizard because he gave the wrong cow to the wrong brahmana. So, Karma Yoga doesn’t take you out of the material world at all. If you do Jnana Yoga and Astanga Yoga, the hope is you can get liberation in your cycle of birth and death, going into Brahman.
But our Acharyas point out, even that doesn’t really work, if you offend the Lord. If you offend the Lord, you fall [Laughs]. So, if you say, I am a person who is going to merge in Brahman, God has no form, then you fall [Laughs]. So, if you want to get liberation, even then, you have to recognize the Lord. So, that is why the intelligent Jnani will also do some Bhakti. And if he does the Bhakti nicely, even though it is secondary and wants to merge and just worships the Lord, then he can get liberation. So, what this shows is that Karma, Jnana and Yoga are dependent on Bhakti ultimately, for whatever meager results they get, material world or liberation, or siddhis or whatever. If you offend the Lord, you get nothing [Laughs]. And if you do all these systems so-called perfectly, you offend the Lord, zero. But if you include Bhakti with a little sincerity, then you get the results. You can get Svargaloka or Satyaloka or liberation. So, these other processes also depend ultimately on Bhakti, even though it is very little, but dependent.
So, this shows the greatness of Bhakti. In other words, the mercy of the Lord is necessary for everything. And if you do a little Bhakti and Karma Yoga, you get a little mercy of the Lord and you can go to Svargaloka. That’s the mercy you get [Laughs]. If you do Jnana Yoga and worship the Lord, then you can get liberation. That’s the mercy you get. And if you do Bhakti, you can get Prema. So, Bhakti, therefore, is a very special process.
And we should understand that when we hear all these other descriptions in Bhagavatam about other processes, don’t get too attracted to them [Laughs] and start practicing all of them [Laughs]. Ultimately, Bhakti is the process. This, of course, is the whole, if we look in the broad scheme of everything in the Bhagavatam, this is the whole theme. Narada Muni told Veda Vyasa, don’t distract people by worshipping so many different deities and doing different processes or whatever. And don’t cater to people in Tamoguna and Rajaguna Sattvaguna, through the different Puranas. Make everything simple for people in Kali Yoga. So, the recommendation of Bhagavatam is the simplest possible formula to get the highest result for the people in Kali Yoga. And what is that? One, Krishna is supreme – ‘kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam’. Of all the forms, no Devatas We don’t want Devatas. And even among forms of the Lord, Krishna is the one we should worship. Not other forms. Because He is the ultimate form, with all the wonderful qualities manifested in full. And how do we approach Krishna? Through the process of pure bhakti. So that’s the order given by Narada Muni to Veda Vyasa. This is what Veda Vyasa does in the Bhagavatam and recited by Sukadeva Goswami. Process of pure bhakti for Krishna.
Lord makes everything even simpler. Because the people of Kali Yoga can’t even do bhakti properly [Laughs]. Therefore, He gives Nama sankirtan [Laughs]. And He says, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, of course, is another form of Krishna. And He is also svayam Bhagavan Krishna, in another form. He propagates and empowers chanting of the Holy Name as the easiest form of bhakti. Bhakti is the easiest, quickest, to get the mercy of the Lord, but chanting the name of Krishna is the absolutely simplest, best, easiest and gives you the highest result. Very, very merciful.
In the Brhad Bhagavatamrta, we have the story of Gopa kumara. He gets a mantra from his guru, happens to be a Krishna mantra, secret mantra, ten-syllable mantra. He’s chanting this mantra and he gets up to Svargaloka, then he gets up to Satyaloka, then he gets up to Sivaloka, then he gets to Vaikuntha [Laughs]. And he’s looking at Vishnu and he’s kind of okay, but he’s not so satisfied also. And then Narada Muni comes and says, see, if you want to get to another place where Krishna resides, not Vishnu, you have to do Nama Sankirtana. So he was chanting Krishna mantra, but it was not enough. Ten-syllable mantra. You have to chant the name of Krishna. So he began chanting the name of Krishna, then he went to Goloka [Laughs]. So even other things related to Krishna may not get you to the highest level, but Nama Sankirtana can get you to the highest level of all. That is realization of Krishna in the spiritual world. So very special process.
So that is why in the Bhagavatam, it says even if you just once purely chant the name of the Lord, you’re beyond this whole system. And if you’re born outside the system as a dog-eater, or a chandala, or a mleccha, and you chant the holy name once, purely, you’re superior to the Brahmana. Instead of going through many, many births, you know, following Sudra rules, and Vaishya rules, and Kshatriya rules, and then becoming a Brahmana and trying for liberation and Jnana, you just chant the name of the Lord once, you’re beyond the whole system. So this is the quick way to purify yourself, get through the gunas, etc., and go beyond the gunas. Process of bhakti yoga.
Okay. Any questions?
Q & A
1) Thank you, Maharaj. It seems that I can sort of see how the system of Varnashram and bhakti, that you can see the potential for conflict in the sense that, as you said, other people are following rules, and they spend a lifetime following the rules, so then that sort of birth thing comes in, that you only advance by birth, and then someone from any guna starts to perform bhakti.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Its beyond [Laughs].
Devotee : So there’s going to be resentment there, it seems like.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Definitely. Even in Lord Caitanya’s time, that was so, the Brahmanas were criticizing, what is all this chanting like that? And, of course, Haridas Thakur was glorifying the holy name, you can get liberation, one Brahmana came along and said, nonsense! This is not true. You have to do Jnana and yoga, you have to be austere, then you can get liberation, but just chanting the name, that’s not going to get liberation, destroy all your karmas.
And he says, if it is true, let my nose fall off. And then his nose did fall off a few days later, he got leprosy [Laughs]. Everybody was shocked [Laughs].
But anyway, there was opposition in Lord Caitanya’s time also. And, of course, you know, Haridas Thakur was chanting the holy name and Lord Caitanya and Advaita Acharya, they were giving great respect to him. But these other Brahmanas, they didn’t like that at all.
And, of course, they beat Haridas Thakur with so many things. So there was opposition even in Lord Caitanya’s time. Oh, even, even you’ll see it [Laughs] after that [Laughs].
But, in Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s time even, there were smarta Brahmanas who were saying, these Gaudiya Vaishnavas, they’re worshipping the deity and whatever, and they’re not even Brahmanas and whenever they take initiation they’re worshipping the deity. This is not proper. You have to be a Brahmana to worship the deity.
So, then they had this big debate. They called all the different smartas and Vaishnavas, Gaudiya Vaishnavas, learned Vaishnavas together to discuss this and come up with a conclusion [Laughs]. And they were, you know, heated arguments back and forth like that.
Bhaktivinoda Thakur could not know. But he sent Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and out of that we get what we call Brahmana and Vaishnava. That’s the book in which he presents his different arguments.
So, of course, Bhaktisiddhanta accepts the idea from scripture that brahmanas are worthy of worship but they should have proper qualities also. So it’s not just birth but your quality is also necessary. But then the other point was that the Vaishnava is even superior to that.
So he gets more respect [Laughs]. Because, he quotes from Bhagavatam that even the person who once chants the holy name purely, he surpasses the brahmana even if he’s a chandala. And for that reason then he established this system in our initiation that when you get your mantra, Krishna mantra in second initiation, then you get a thread, you get the Brahma gayatri mantra [Laughs]. Which means not that you’re a brahmana but you’re superior to a brahmana. You can do anything a brahmana can do. So in other words, he was challenging that whole system of the smartas there who were basing everything on birth.
2) Hare Krishna. So for a devotee practicing bhakti, at what stage does he lose his right to perform his karmas? So Varnashram karmas like sandhya vandanam, chanting Gayatri. So only a person at the level of Bhava and Prema, does he lose the right to perform sandhya vandanam etc. or at what stage performing uttama bhakti?
In Bhagavatam it says, when you have faith and a taste for hearing topics of the lord, etc. If you’re performing bhakti, then you don’t have to do all these other things. And of course it says, even if you give up all these rituals and karmas, it’s not a sin. And you should never think it’s a sin if you have to give them up. If you have that faith in devotional service then you begin the process. So it’s not only when you get to Bhava or Prema or whatever like that.
Nevertheless, we do see that many advanced devotees who were in bhakti do not give up their Varna, Ashrama rituals, etc. Like lord Caitanya. He took sannyasa as part of the varna ashram system.
All lord Caitanya’s associates, most of them were following their duties. He had brahmanas and kshatriyas and vaisyas and sudras in Navadvipa. They stayed in whatever position.
They didn’t, you know, supersede the system and the sudras didn’t say, you’re nonsense brahmanas, we’re going to be better than you. They kept their particular duties, etc. So to some extent, they still followed the system as long as it was not contrary to bhakti and they didn’t want to disturb the social system.
At the same time, they do have a right to give up everything but you also have to be qualified. So you have to give up your occupation [Laughs], you have to give up everything, you have to give up your ashram, you can’t be a householder anymore [Laughs], you can’t even be a sannyasi, you give up everything. So this is what was called the Babaji.
So in Lord Caitanya’s movement, after that, the equivalent of giving up everything and just doing bhakti was the Babaji. But then not everyone is qualified to be a Babaji. They stay as a householder. If they’re a householder they have to follow sub-rules so if they were in the remnants of the Varnashrama system at that time, they follow those rules as a householder. So therefore, you can or can’t [Laughs]. So the pure bhakti is dependent on your attachment to bhakti.
So you can do either karma yoga, varnashram, or even jnana or astanga yoga as long as it does not contaminate the bhakti and it’s still called pure bhakti. So we have many examples in Bhagavatam of great devotees but they were also practicing Varnashrama system. Manus themselves, Dhruva, Prahlada, Ambarish Maharaj, whatever.
Great kings following Varnashram system but they were also great devotees. But those rules did not interfere or confuse their bhakti and give other material goals or whatever. So as long as it’s not contaminated, you can or can’t, you can reject the whole system or you can do it as long as there’s no obstacles to your bhakti, to your pure bhakti.
3) You’ve been emphasizing that bhakti can be broken into sort of categories and we have to aim at pure bhakti. Could you unpack that a little bit more?
Pure bhakti, yeah. Of course, this is mentioned at the very beginning of the Nectar of Devotion anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ [Laughs]. So that Anya, no other desire. We have one desire to serve Krishna. Other desires, no [Laughs]. That’s pure bhakti.
So an example of in the Bhagavad Gita four types of people surrender to Krishna. One’s suffering, one who wants material assets, one who’s curious, one who’s knowledgeable. So the first two are particularly kind of mixed bhakti. They want something. So they worship Krishna, but they’re trying to get something out of Krishna also [Laughs].
So I worship Krishna, I pray to Krishna, please give me some money or please give me a job or please give me a son or whatever. So people go to the temple and pray. They’re also devotees, but mixed, you know.
So that’s a type of bhakti and it’s better than no bhakti [Laughs]. It’s better than worshiping Devatas, but it’s also not the highest level. Then we call this karma-misra bhakti. So material desires mixed. A little bit higher, of course, is to get me out of the material world, please Krishna save me from all this misery, give me liberation [Laughs]. That’s Jnana misra bhakti. So that’s not pure bhakti and you can advance by that. You can get purified, ultimately you can get liberation or whatever. Even a little bit beyond that, you can get to Vaikuntha and have a weak relationship with the Lord through that.
But you don’t get full Prema. So if we start with pure bhakti, it doesn’t mean that we are pure because we’ve still got anarthas, we’ve got faith and we’ve got a little bhakti, but we’ve got a lot of anarthas and we start sadhana and we go through anartha nivrtti to nishta and Ruchi and Asakti. We have anarthas all the way through there. So it’s not literally pure. So we have subconscious desires for material enjoyment even then, but at least in the practice of bhakti we’re not explicitly praying, please Krishna, give me this and whatever and that’s contaminated.
So our aspiration is for serving Krishna purely. Let me just serve you, I’m not asking for anything and you can do whatever you want with me. So that proper attitude should be there even if we cannot do it perfectly, even if we have subconscious material desires, etc. So that’s in sadhana our pure bhakti. But that will lead to pure bhakti in Bhava and Prema. But if we are always consciously mixing material desires or liberation desires into our bhakti from the beginning we don’t get to Bhava and Prema, we get something else.
Okay. That’s it. Hare Krishna.