Misconceptions behind how to respect various types & levels of Guru’s in ISKCON | HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj | ISKCON Villa Vrindavana, Italy | Aug 2, 2025 |
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevaya
nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale
śrīmate bhaktivedānta-svāmin iti nāmine
namas te sārasvate deve gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe
nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe
jaya śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
So this is a presentation that is on the subject of Guru. It’s not my only presentation, I’ve also made 6 other presentations [Laughs] on Guru also. One of them I recall was, who gets the karma [Laughs]? Because we do have the idea that you take initiation, all your karmas gone. So I kind of defeat that concept [Laughs]. Another one on Siksha and Diksha Guru. So this one of course is related to the others. It has to do with how we respect Gurus.
It all began many years ago, because I think the GBC had a major meeting in Prabhupada Desh, in 2000 something and they were doing strategic planning and one of the topics that came up they should investigate was Gurus [Laughs]. I don’t know what year it was, 2006 or something? The role of Guru in ISKCON. Because there is a little bit of a conflict. We have the managers, the temple presidents and GBCs, managing society, but then we have the Guru and he gets equally, even more power than the others, because he has disciples, so there is a little bit of a conflict between those two things.
So out of that, we made a small group of devotees including Sivarama swami and Niranjana Swami etc [Laughs]. and out of that we produced a little paper and I made a presentation on lines of authority of ISKCON and how they have to interact. Out of that of course there were some resolutions made by the GBC and they also started a disciple course, so the disciples get a more clear idea of what Guru means. However, after some years we also realized that in spite of the course, in spite of our conclusions, the problem still remained [Laughs]. So the GBC also passed further resolutions [Laughs]. I think the last one was 2014 or something like that, but still there seems to be a problem.
Of course the idea of Guru is common in Vedic scriptures and Vaishnava literature etc. It’s common, not only among the Vaishnavas, but it’s common among most people in India, they all know what Guru is [Laughs]. And it seems that those people from India who go abroad to teach spiritual life, they also are treated as Gurus even by people on the western world. People like Ravi Shankar and all these people, they go to the west and they get treated like Gurus [Laughs] as well.
So definitely, within the Vedic literature, Guru is emphasized and respected. And we see throughout the Bhagavatam great respect is given to Guru. However, if we look in Srimad Bhagavatam, we’ll find that the idea of Guru there, is actually a person who teaches. So for instance in the first canto we have Suta instructing the sages of Naimisaranya [Laughs]. Narada instructs Vyasadeva. Vyasadeva instructs Sukadeva Goswami. Sukadeva instructs Pariksit, all this in first canto itself [Laughs]. And throughout the rest of the Bhagavatam again one person is teaching another. So the speaker is considered Guru and everyone respects him as Guru. But he is respected, because he is teaching, He is a Siksha Guru.
And we see that in the introduction to Bhagavad Gita, Prabhupada has traced our Parampara of Guru’s. And as we go on in this line then we realize that ultimately it’s not a diksha line. It’s a Siksha line he’s tracing. Vishvanath Chakravarti did not give initiation to Jagannath Das Babaji. They were several hundred years apart, maybe a hundred years difference [Laughs]. Jagannath Das Babaji did not give diksha to Bhakti Vinod Thakur. Bhakti Vinod Thakur had a different diksha Guru. Bhakti Vinod Thakur did not give initiation to Gaur Kishore Das Babaji [Laughs]. Yet these are listed here, because the prominent influence was Siksha. They all had diksha Gurus, but that was not so important as the line of Siksha. And if we look in the Vedas, Upanishads, etc., they also trace lines through Siksha.
So in the transmission of knowledge from one person to another, there is a rule that one has to give respect to the teacher. And this is, of course, in maybe all cultures of the world, the teacher has to be respected [Laughs]. And probably in India, in the Vedic culture, that respect for the teacher was, we can say, even more profound. We have this particular verse from the Svetasvatara Upanishad, which Prabhupada quotes in different places, ‘one has bhakti or devotion for the Supreme Lord, one has to have equal bhakti for a Guru’. And if one has that respect for the Guru, which is like respect for the Lord, then you can understand the meaning of scripture. So in other words, the disciple is always taught to respect the Guru like God, even though he is not God.
This is a quotation from 11th Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam. Srila Prabhupada also quotes this often. ‘ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān’ (SB 11.17.27) [Laughs]. So one should know or accept the Acharya as Krishna himself [Laughs]. So not only the Vedic scriptures, but the Puranas and so many other scriptures emphasize the aspect that, we have to give respect to Guru. Jiva Goswami has written a commentary on this particular verse. So this verse actually is an instruction because there’s a whole description of Brahmachari, Grhastha, Vanaprastha and Sannyasa, the different ashrams. So Brahmachari ashram is described and this is describing what the Brahmachari should do, he has to respect the Guru like God [Laughs]. So what does the Brahmachari learn? He’s learning the Vedas. And in the Vedas, one of the sections is Karma kanda. Karma kanda is material. But even then, you have to respect that Karma kanda material Guru as God [Laughs]. So, in other words, the respect is due to all teachers, whether you’re teaching spiritually or material subjects. And many of those quotations, I think all of them actually [Laughs], the Guru is actually a Siksha Guru, not a Diksha Guru. Of course, it can also apply to a Diksha Guru.
Now we can ask, well, what’s the difference between a Siksha Guru and a Diksha Guru? So a Siksha Guru is one who gives teachings, and for us it means teachings of Bhagavatam, teachings of Vaishnava scriptures, he is the Siksha Guru. So, in the Bhakti-sandarbha, Jiva Goswami describes different types of Gurus. So he describes a Guru who teaches in the beginning, and then he gives you some teachings on the method of worship, etc., called the Sravana Guru, this is a type of Siksha Guru. And then one can take that Guru also for, accept him as a Diksha Guru. So, what is the difference? So the difference is also presented elsewhere by Jiva Goswami.
So the main distinguishing factor is the Diksha Guru gives a Diksha mantra. It’s not Hare Krishna mantra. So these are mantras that we get in our so-called second initiation. And these are not publicly announced, they are secret. So you can meditate on them and chant them silently, but we cannot reveal them to any other person. So if you reveal your mantra, it becomes useless [Laughs]. So, if you want to preach this mantra to other people, you have to give them initiation, give them this secret mantra. On the other hand, Hare Krishna, we tell everybody you chant Hare Krishna, no initiation. So it’s much more flexible in terms of preaching. So, the Diksha Guru is the one who gives this particular mantra. So why do we need the mantra? So, this Diksha mantra is part of a Pancharatric procedure, which means, has to do with deity worship. In order to do deity worship, you have to get this Diksha mantra. And when you offer lamps or flowers, etc., you have to utter this mantra, otherwise your offering is useless [Laughs]. So this Diksha mantra is related directly to Pancharatra and deity worship. You can also use that same Diksha mantra for meditation, as we use Hare Krishna [Not clear]. But you cannot use it for Kirtan, because it’s secret. So it’s not the Yuga Dharma. So, the Guru who gives that mantra is called the Diksha Guru. And you can only have one Diksha Guru, because you’re only supposed to worship one deity [Laughs].
So, the other Guru is the Siksha Guru. He is the one who gives teachings. And you could have more than one Siksha Guru. Of course, the Diksha Guru should, and often does, give teachings as well. But if the Diksha Guru, for some reason, is not available, then you can always get Siksha from a Siksha Guru. So, both of these are Gurus, Vaishnava Gurus, and both have to be given this respect, like God [Laughs]. Of course, in a work like Krishna Bhajanamrita, Narahari, he says, well, all Vaishnavas are Gurus [Laughs]. So we respect all Vaishnavas, but then we choose special Vaishnavas, one to give us mantra, that is the Diksha Guru, and one who gives some more particular, specialized teachings, the Siksha Guru, or Siksha Gurus.
So anyway, we have one Diksha Guru. And his primary function, we call him Diksha Guru, because he gives that mantra. So, now, when we use the word initiation and Diksha Guru in ISKCON, it’s a little bit of a broader meaning for us. Why? Because we say, I’m initiated, but we may not have those Diksha mantra yet. At only second initiation you get. When we get first initiation, I’m initiated, I got Diksha. But technically, you never got the mantra. So you didn’t get the Diksha mantra. So it’s not a real complete Diksha ceremony [Laughs].
Okay so what is the qualification for Guru – either Siksha Guru or Diksha Guru? So we have a famous verse like this, which says, ‘śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam’ (SB 11.3.21) So, what is the Guru? He is fixed in ‘śābde’, which means devotional scriptures, like Bhagavatam. He knows Bhagavatam very well. And ‘Para brahmaṇy’ means, he’s fixed in hearing and chanting about the Lord. So in other words, that Guru, Siksha Guru, Diksha Guru, should have knowledge of the scriptures. And it should be steady in the other angas of bhakti, like hearing, chanting, etc.
Of course, in Caitanya Caritamrita, there Krishnadas Kaviraj says, He is Guru, who knows Krishna Tattva. So it doesn’t matter about Varna or Ashrama or whatever. If you know about Krishna, then you can be considered Guru. But then the question will arise, well, how much do we have to know about Krishna [Laughs]? New bhaktas, you know, read Bhagavad Gita, so they know about Krishna. So are they considered to be Guru or not [Laughs]? So of course, the other extreme is, Oh, one who knows Krishna is one who is realized Krishna, experiencing rasa with Krishna in the spiritual world, that’s the real Guru. So Prabhupada explains, to spread Krishna conscious, one only need to be cognizant, or he have knowledge of the science of the spirit soul, i.e. Krishna Tattva. He knows the science of the spirit soul. So Prabhupada explains, if one simply understands the science, he can become a spiritual master.
So we got a very broad scope of what knowing Krishna means [Laughs]. So of course, even if you know a little bit of bona fide scriptures, like Bhagavad Gita, it’s very good, you can practice pure Bhakti. And if someone teaches that to someone else, it’s very good and beneficial for the other person, so in that sense, he is a Guru [Laughs]. However, we may want to expect someone to have a little bit more knowledge than that. May be he’s got thorough knowledge of Bhagavad Gita, thorough knowledge of Bhagavatam, thorough knowledge of Nectar of Devotion, so many other things. So a person with more knowledge obviously may be a better candidate to be a Guru. And of course then, maybe even a higher qualification as well, you have to realize the knowledge. You have to have bhava or prema, that can be Guru also. So all these are acceptable standards.
In any case, whoever we accept as Guru, then we have to give that respect as God [Laughs]. So, we respect all devotees as Gurus, but we give special respect to Diksha and Siksha Gurus. But these Gurus maybe on different levels also, your Diksha Guru maybe on one level, or Siksha Gurus can be on different levels. So the procedure of course is, if you have a Diksha Guru and then you want to take a Siksha Guru, you should take permission from Diksha Guru to get other Siksha Gurus who will actually give similar teachings. But this also implies that if your Guru is not in prema, he’s in Bhava or sadhana bhakti, he will have imperfections. So a person in Bhava has a realization of the Lord, he is very advanced like Bharat Maharaj, but he have faults also [Laughs]. And of course, Bharat Maharaj, because of that fault, he actually fell from his position and became a deer in his next life [Laughs]. But, even if these Gurus do have some faults, we still have to worship them. We have to give the respect as Guru [Laughs]. So, that respect is always necessary in order to receive knowledge. If one is proud, one cannot receive knowledge properly.
So, if we give proper respect, then Siksha Guru, Diksha Guru give their mercy. And their mercy is the root of destroying all the anarthas or obstacles in bhakti. And if you get the mercy of the Gurus, then you get the mercy of Krishna. So, you don’t get the mercy unless you give proper respect [Laughs]. So, in Canto 7 of Bhagavatam, it gives this statement. One conquers all the obstacles like in tamas, rajas and sattva, most easily by devotion to Guru [Laughs]. So, respect is due to all Gurus. At the same time, Gurus are on different levels [Laughs].
So, Bhakti Vinod Thakur in Caitanya Siksamrita, there, he describes the different powers of the different Gurus on different levels. So, if a person has prema bhakti, the power is unlimited. So, that person in prema bhakti can give his mercy and his power to any person, even most fallen person. So, prema bhakta can raise the most fallen person with no qualification to prema bhakti. So, the stage below prema is called bhava. So, that person has some realization of the Lord, but he still has some anarthas. So, he has great power also and great mercy. He can instill power in persons not from the lowest stage, but persons who do sadhana bhakti, he can raise them up. So, a person in bhava bhakti can raise a person from sadhana up to bhava stage. And if a person has no bhakti previously, that bhava bhakta can raise him up to ruchi.
Lower than that are the devotees performing sadhana bhakti. They may be doing vaidhi sadhana bhakti or raganuga sadhana bhakti. So, they can instill faith in materialistic people who have some, due to previous birth or something, a little bit of qualification. How do they instill faith? By their teachings and by their example. So, this level of giving teachings and setting example is more or less equivalent to what we call the madhyama devotees. He likes to distribute mercy to the innocent people, who are not demons [Laughs]. He associates with devotees and so he learns proper bhakti scriptures. So, in this way, the madhyama adhikari is the usual preacher in the material world.
Those who are on higher bhava or prema usually don’t make distinctions. So they look at the material world, they say, what do I have to preach? Everybody’s in prema. So therefore it’s the madhyama devotee who does the actual preaching in this world. So this is explained by Vishvanatha Cakravarti in a work called Madhurya Kadambini. In any case, whether it is madhyama or uttama, it is not that the devotee himself is so qualified as he has got the shakti from Krishna. So Krishna is acting through the prema bhakta or bhava bhakta or madhyama devotee [Laughs]. And the devotee who is giving mercy should also understand that he is simply a conduit for Krishna’s mercy. In the Nectar of Devotion, Rupa Goswami gives another definition of uttama. So this definition is actually about a person doing sadhana bhakti. So this person is a person who is skillful in scripture and logic. Consequently, he is very fixed in his faith and he becomes very qualified for preaching.
So, in this way, we have a broad category of people who can teach and who can act as Siksha Gurus or even Diksha Gurus. So, in the Nectar of Devotion, Prabhupada also makes a statement that one may be, out of many Vaishnavas, one may be found to be very seriously engaged in the service of the Lord as to confine to the regulative principles. He is chanting the prescribed number of rounds on his japa mala and he is thinking of how to expand Krishna consciousness movement. So he says, such a Vaishnava should be accepted as uttama adhikari [Laughs] and you should seek his association. In the Caitanya Caritamrta, it is also said, Prabhupad says, there are two kinds of Siksha Gurus or instructing spiritual master. One is liberated and who is fully absorbed in meditation, etc. The other is one who invokes the disciple’s spiritual consciousness by teachings [Laughs]. So, therefore, the Gurus could be on different levels, that’s the whole point.
Now, according to the level of the Guru, then, we give different levels of respect. Even though we say Guru is God, nevertheless, we also make distinctions [Laughs]. So the one who is on a higher level of spiritual advancement, he will get more respect. So, therefore, though that instruction is there to treat Guru as God, at the same time we have to have a little intelligence to see who is higher and we give more respect. So that idea of Guru as God also got levels in it [Laughs].
When we talk about mercy, we often means giving spiritual instructions. Of course, people may think, well, mercy means giving some shaktis or power like that [Laughs]. But we see in Bhagavatam the giving of mercy is giving teachings, throughout the Bhagavatam. So, the instructions of scriptures are also non-different from the Lord. And because the devotee is delivering those instructions, he is also non-different from the Lord, that’s why he gets respect like the Lord. But, of course, the higher you are and the purer you are, the more you got devotion, then the more potent those instructions become. So, therefore, you give more respect. So, at least minimum, at minimum, we are like the postman. He doesn’t open up the letter [Laughs] and start changing the instructions in the letter [Laughs], he delivers the letter as it is [Laughs]. So, therefore, we respect all Gurus, but there’s also levels of respect.
In Krishna Bhajanamrita, there’s an example given. He says, Father is like Guru, so you give him great respect. But you also give the same respect to father’s brothers [Laughs]. But then, you have the father’s father. You have to give him double respect [Laughs]. So, in this way, we give respect to everybody, but, nevertheless, there are levels of respect. And in our movement ISKCON, Prabhupada is the primary Guru and the founder Acharya, so he gets the most respect. And then, of course, we have Diksha Gurus and Siksha Gurus, etc., so we give them respect, but we give more respect to Prabhupada.
Okay so within ISKCON, we do have to recognize the level of our Gurus and also their relationship with Srila Prabhupada. And we should see these Gurus as postmen [Laughs]. And we do have to be realistic about the position of these Gurus. We have seen in the past that ISKCON had many problems with Gurus, particularly Diksha Gurus. Many of these Gurus fell down, left the movement, and then there’s major disruptions in preaching. Even if the Gurus don’t fall down, we tend to get groups based on loyalty to Guru. And this threatens the harmony of the institution, ISKCON.
So I mentioned originally in the Prabhupad-desh they had this meeting, and one of the problems identified is the power of Gurus versus the power of ISKCON. So there is more loyalty to Guru than there is to ISKCON. So this was recognized as a problem then and it’s still a problem today. We see that some enthusiastic disciples, because Guru is like God or whatever, then they canvass for their Guru that my Guru is the best [Laughs]. So there’s like a fragmentation of ISKCON, but also there’s minimization of Prabhupada’s position because of this. So ISKCON remains, but then for the disciple, the institution of the Guru becomes more important, more powerful. So of course this arises because the disciple has a certain conception of Guru. And the disciple cannot be really blamed because if he looks at scriptures, it says you treat your Guru like God [Laughs].
But as I presented here, this idea of Guru is brought because we have Siksha Gurus, Diksha Gurus, and we have founder acharya, we have all sorts of Gurus. So it’s a statement, Guru is like God, but we have to also refine that statement. But in any case, even now, when a person gets initiated and chooses a Diksha Guru, then he thinks my Guru is the best, my Guru is perfect, my Guru is a nitya siddha, my Guru knows everything. So I dedicate everything to my Guru and I don’t listen to anybody else. So in a sense, yes, this is what scripture says [Laughs]. But as I said, we have to also go through the scripture very carefully and understand there’s different levels of Guru, different levels of respect. Furthermore, all of these scriptural rules have to be taken into consideration but we also have to consider that we are in a particular organization called ISKCON. And that organization also has rules so we can’t contradict those rules.
So due to the idea that Guru is like God, then the disciples will often project upon the Guru in an artificial sense. So the logic is, well, scripture says Guru is like God. The idea is that, yes, we learn from the scriptures, the logic is that we accept the spiritual master as God. And God is perfect. ISKCON has approved my Guru, so he’s also like God and he’s perfect [Laughs]. So this is a false expectation that we’re sticking on the Guru. It’s not healthy for the disciple, because if he looks closely, he’ll see so many imperfections in any [Laughs] person including his Guru [Laughs]. It’s also unhealthy for the Guru. Sometimes the Gurus begin to believe they’re perfect [Laughs]. And this can lead to fall down.
Another problem is that because of this elevated position of the Guru in the disciple’s eyes, and maybe the Guru believes that it is wonderful, there’s a competition to become a Diksha Guru. Because Diksha Guru is a powerful figure, within the ISKCON institution. Nobody cares for the temple president [Laughs], they just care for the Diksha Guru [Laughs]? So the solution is, become a Diksha Guru then you’ve got all the power [Laughs]. So actually it’s not funny. It’s actually what many devotees are thinking in India particularly. I have to become a Diksha Guru, because I’m a temple president, so I have to become a Diksha Guru, that way I can control everybody under me. So if our bhakti depends on being a Diksha Guru, this is very unhealthy for our bhakti.
In Nectar of Devotion, Rupa Goswami says, ‘Bhakti which is accomplished by dependence on wealth or followers or other objects is not part of Uttama Bhakti’. It destroys pure bhakti. So we have to be very careful of that. Now all these conceptions about worshipping Guru etc, which come from scripture. But we should have to understand the meaning of those words. We should look at all the scriptural statements we should look at the explanations of the Acharyas.
So of course ISKCON has realized this, so the GBC has passed some resolutions [Laughs]. Still misconception continues. So we have a little bit more work to do [Laughs]. So there has to be an understanding of the function of the Diksha Guru. And perhaps the GBC has to make some statement. So our Diksha Gurus are not Uttama adhikaris they are postmen, they are Madhyama adhikaris doing a duty to pass on spiritual knowledge. So perhaps the Guru should make a direct statement because even if GBC says, the disciples say, ‘well that doesn’t apply to my Guru’ [Laughs] so therefore the Guru himself should probably make a statement to his disciples.
So I wrote up a sample statement that, the Guru should recite to his disciple [Laughs]. Its actually based upon one Diksha Guru at ISKCON who preaches in Japan, so we were asking well what about your disciples? Then he said I don’t have to [not clear] disciples, he says. Because he says, I have the statement that I read to anyone who wants to take initiation from me a statement and make him clearly understand my position. Ok, so this is like a kind of based on what he said [Laughs]. So, “I accept you as a disciple, my capacity and responsibility as Siksha Guru is to give instructions following those of Srila Prabhupada, to the best of my knowledge and my realization and as a Diksha Guru to give the Diksha Mantras passed down in our Sampradaya. I am simply acting as a loyal servant of Srila Prabhupad and the Parampara, transmitting the teachings like a postman. I make no claims to have all knowledge of material subjects, such as marriage, family, business. And You shouldn’t approach me for you to make your decisions about these things in your life.”
So what we do find in ISKCON is that, the Guru is supposed to know everything so the disciple will go to the Guru , all the marriage problems, all the children problems, all the education problems, all the business problems, and say, what should I do [Laughs]? And if the Guru says, I don’t know, or I’m not going to give you any, you know, advice, then the disciple is very disappointed [Laughs]. And if he does give advice, and then the disciple follows, and he ends up with a bad marriage or a bad business, then he rejects the Guru [Laughs]. So the Guru should also say, “I’m not the final authority in directing where you serve, and have no authority to start my independent projects. And all my Guru dakshina is ultimately ISKCON property. My responsibility is to see that you understand our philosophy and practices. So that you can make practical steps to progress in your spiritual life.”
Yeah, so that should be understood as the position of the Guru, and therefore, it’ll be a lot simpler. So we have Siksha Gurus and diksha Gurus. But, and yes, they are helping deliver the disciple. But then we have our primary savior, that’s Śrīla Prabhupāda. We have diksha Gurus, Siksha Gurus, and they’re giving spiritual knowledge and inspiration, whatever.. in that sense, they’re delivering the disciple. At the same time, everyone, not just Prabhupāda’s disciples, but the disciples of the disciples, their disciples, etc., should take Śrīla Prabhupāda as their primary deliverer. So, simply by assuming that role as a diksha Guru, the devotee shouldn’t assume that suddenly that person has special powers.
Okay, finished. Any questions?
Q & A:
1) If you said, to understand more, the role of the shikshā and dīkṣa, because we see in our sampardhaya, in the movement, sometimes we say the shikshā is more important than the dīkṣa because it gives spiritual instruction, take care of the disciple. Sometimes, on the contrary, the dīkṣa just gives the mantra the disciple doesn’t have such a close relationship with it. So, my question is, anyway, in this special year, this tendency to give such a big importance and priority to the dīkṣa, from now to the shikshā, and also, we consider that this dīkṣa is supposed to take you back to Godhead. Take the responsibility for you to go back to Godhead. Sometimes, we hear.. many times.. if you don’t want to go back to Godhead, this life time, then the dīkṣa Guru to come back and bring you back to in next life.
Yeah, of course, Caitanya-caritāmṛta says, the respect for a shikṣa Guru and a dīkṣa Guru is equal. Yeah. At the same time, as I said, according to the level of advancement, you may give more respect to the person who is more advanced. It could be the shikṣa Guru or the dīkṣa Guru [laughs]. Of course, if we look at the conduct of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He took dīkṣa, but in his preaching, He didn’t really say, everybody has to take initiation or you don’t go back to Godhead. He didn’t say that [Laughs]. He said, everybody chant the holy name. He also said, by holy name, you get to prema. He also says, holy name does not depend on dīkṣa. So in His preaching, he was simply encouraging everybody to chant, and by that you get highest goal of My prema.
Now after the disappearance of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the succeeding generation, began to kind of emphasis the dīkṣa aspect, so we get the hereditary dīkṣa lines [Laughs]. Bhakti Siddhānta saraswathy Thakur was very opposed to that. And that’s one of the reasons that he didn’t praise the dīkṣa line at all he praised the shikṣa line [Laughs]. However, Bhakti Siddhānta also gave dīkṣa [laughs]. Of course, he gave shikṣa also. After his disappearance, again, there was this emphasis about dīkṣa.
So, it looks as if the dīkṣa gets emphasised, inspite of the fact that Lord Caitanya didn’t really emphasis it that much, there is a reason. It’s easier to identity a person by dīkṣa. Like you got the mantra or you didn’t get a mantra from some person. Siksha you can claim from anybody it’s difficult to figure out and because of that we say it’s easy to identify with dīkṣa and it’s also easy to manage. They say, you are initiated then you are member of this organisation and if you are not initiated you are outside. So, of course those are the reason but these are material you can say [Laughs].
So within ISKCON, of course we have siksha and dīkṣa but obviously the dīkṣa is very much emphasised. But when we say initiation is dīkṣa, there is a kind of very vague meaning to it. So the scriptural meaning is, you get the dīkṣa mantra in the second initiation, but usually we think of initiation as first initiation so its like, there is shift in the definition here. So, the first initiation is not really…you are not getting the dīkṣa mantra, so it’s not really the dīkṣa because you can’t worship the deity with first initiation. But it is a formalisation of accepting the Guru and that person acting hopefully, as a siksha Guru. So in one sense yes, we do have shikṣa and dīkṣa, but that dīkṣa Guru is acting as a siksa Guru also. But often we find that the dīkṣa Guru who is also acting as siksha Guru, takes first initiation and then second, he is not too much available for the disciple. And the disciple has to depend a lot upon other devotees to get the sīkṣa.
We also get another phenomenon is that, you know, the temple is getting, attracting people and they train them up and they give teachings, and some of the leaders are giving all the training and then they recommend them for dīkṣa. But then after the initiation they disappear [Laughs], and they’re still having a connection with the Guru, but they don’t have a connection with the temple. So this is also misunderstanding. So it seems that this whole idea of initiation in an institution also becomes an institution in itself. So it’s a type of recognition of being a member of ISKCON. Of course it has plus and minus points to it. Yes, we should be serious about our bhakti, take initiation, etc. But then initiation also simply becomes like a materialistic label that we could say, I’m approved. I’m an approved devotee, you know [Laughs]. That, of course, is a danger in any spiritual organization when we start organizing and, you know, doing things like that, then there is a tendency to formalize things and ritualize things, and then they become a little bit materialistic in their identity.
For that reason, maybe this is one of the reasons, the Siksha was never formalized. Because you start formalizing, it’s like getting a degree again, and then it becomes, you know, this kind of materialistic. But definitely in ISKCON we should emphasize the Siksha more, and everyone should understand what is dīkṣa and what is shikṣa, whatever.
2) Thank you for the wonderful presentation. I’m just wondering, I teach people yoga and bhakti we give that, and I give them a one-year training. And after the training, I lead them into the path of bhakti and come closer to Krishna Consciousness. And in the end, as a ceremony, I give them a spiritual name, not as an initiation, but just a spiritual name. And the reason why I started doing this is because my mentor, my spiritual master, said I have to follow whatever the mentor tells me. I was learning that, you know, I teach these students, but then they grow into spirituality, and then they go into another path, okay, lets try another place. So she said, just give them a name, so that they stick to you and your tradition. And the amazing thing is that after I started doing that, is that people became devotees. They started chanting and coming to the temple, and it became like, I mean, there are so many of them now here. So I’m just thinking, like, is that wrong? Or is that okay for the preaching sake to do such a thing?
So that initiation serves that purpose in one sense. Social recognition is a good part of the group. So anyway, it’s also interesting, because Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur actually introduced what looks like our first initiation. He didn’t call it initiation, he only says initiation, it’s the second one. But he called his first ceremony Nam Dhan, giving the name. So he made a little bit of a formal ceremony of chanting Hare Krishna, even though it’s not in scripture.
Sometimes he also gave names to these devotees, who sincerely were chanting the Holy Name. And so the reason for doing that is because if you don’t do anything and you wait until the second initiation, some of them are going to wander off and join some other group [Laughs]. Now, giving a name is also part of what we call Panchasāṃskara, which is Pancharatrik initiation. So there’s five saṃskaras. One is giving a name, another is getting your mantra, is getting tilakā, like that. So that’s part of initiation in Pancharatrika, like Ramanuja Sampradāya, that’s how they do initiation. So in our first initiation, that’s what we do. We give a name, and then we have vows, etc. So it’s like partial initiation, and then the real initiation is the second initiation with the mantra.
So now you’re doing another ceremony, which is like a pre-initiation or something like that. We also have a ceremony in some places where we call Prabhupāda Āśraya [Laughs].
So the devotees come, they’re chanting like 16 rounds, and they read Bhagavad Gītā, coming to the temple, and whatever, following regulated principles, everything. And then they make a vow to Prabhupāda, like that. So that’s kind of a pre-initiation ceremony also. So we have this system where people come, they accept to follow the principles, to chant 16 rounds, and they’re basically accepted under the umbrella of the Holy Name.
So, technically there are no rules for preaching the Holy Name. According to the time and place what is practical you can do certain things [Laughs]. And the only restriction will be because we are doing at ISKCON, is ISKCON going to approve that? That will be the question. So, you give one name and then they come for initiation, and they get second name [Laughs] ? So they have two names [Laughs] or i don’t know. Of course, there’s also no problem with that. There’s no restriction on how many spiritual names you could have [Laughs]. It’s like we have a first name, a second name, and a third name sometimes in our material names [Laughs]. So it’s more or less up to managerial authorities, if they approve fine, no problem. So as he says of course all of these is little bit identity with the group etc., may be a materialistic mechanism or something like that. But we say initiation is also material etc, alI of these things are there and this depends on how we use them and what our goal is. Rituals in themselves are okay, but if it’s divorced from the actual goal, then of course it becomes materialistic [Laughs].
3) Question audio is not clear
Yeah. Yeah, so we have recognition of different levels of congregation according to their commitments. Yeah. So that’s a way of preaching, actually. And I also have another presentation on this, that according to time and place, we do have to change.
So some aspects of preaching in 1970 or 75 are quite different from what we preach now.
How we attract people will be different. Our means of communication is obviously very different. Before we were emphasizing books, now books are almost obsolete. So any organization has to change something according to the time. And now things change so fast, we have to keep changing something.
At the same time, we are a very conservative organization. We have tradition and parampara, so some things we cannot change. But that doesn’t mean that we have to fix ourselves permanently in one mould and one paradigm, whatever, forever. We do have to change other things. And that is why bhakti is preferred over karma, jnana and yoga, etc., because it is more flexible.
4) It is difficult for me to grasp the exact spiritual dimension of first intiation. Because I understand, we are actually encouraging power, prestige etc, for me it looks like material. So it is difficult for me to grasp the spiritual dimension.
So [Laughs] because it is not mentioned in the scriptures, then it is difficult to give us a scriptural perspective on it. But as I said, giving the name was part of Pancharatya Diksha, so that part is scriptural. So the other part, as I said, originated with Bhakti-Siddhanta Sarasvati. Before that, there was no such ceremony. It was only Diksha or no Diksha, finished. Get the mantra or don’t get the mantra. No ceremony, no yajya, nothing. Just get the mantra, finished. That was a very simple ceremony. Your Diksha mantra like Lord Caitanya’s Diksha mantra, finished. So the Diksha is defined when you get the mantra. If you get the mantra, you have Diksha. If you don’t get the mantra, no Diksha. So that’s it.
But what is this first initiation? So we have many things happening. We have a fire sacrifice. We have vows. You get a name. And you get beads. Of those, getting the name is part of Pancharatic. And then? You get a name. So the other things, like even in Bhakti-siddhanta , he didn’t really have vows for that first ceremony. But he did give beads. But even that’s not scriptural. We don’t see it mentioned that Lord Caitanya giving out beads, or anybody giving out beads. But there’s probably some tradition, local tradition, of giving beads when you chant. So, by having a ceremony with all these elements, then it becomes some sort of formalized ritual. So, and of course in there, we have an acceptance of a Guru. So we can say it’s a formalized, it’s a ritualized acceptance of a Guru. So, the first anga of bhakti in Nectar of Devotion is Guru Padashraya. The second one is Diksha and Shiksha. So, there’s another anga called the Surrendering to a Guru. So, this is kind of like a formalization of Surrender to a Guru.
So what does that surrender mean? It means actually we’re accepting a siksha Guru, basically that’s what it is at that moment. So, that’s probably the spiritual aspect of it. Now as we say, all of these rituals can also become materialistic. So they help us materially speaking because we get some sort of identity with the Guru. We get some approval [Laughs]. Often devotees say, are you initiated or not? So, you’re a devotee or not a devotee, that kind of implication [Laughs].
So that of course has pluses and minuses again. It may encourage people to advance further, but then the negative aspect is it becomes a label. You get it and then you forget about it and you got your title, so you forget about your bhakti, the Guru [Laughs].
Devotees: Thank you Maharaj. Grantharaj srimad Bhagavatham Ki jai !!! HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj Ki jai!!!