Srimad Bhagavatam – 11.10.8 | HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj | ISKCON Chennai | 26 March 2021
Oṁ Namo Bhagavate Vāsudevāya
Oṁ Namo Bhagavate Vāsudevāya
Oṁ Namo Bhagavate Vāsudevāya
nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale
śrīmate bhaktivedānta-svāmin iti nāmine
namas te sārasvate deve gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe
nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe
śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
Reading from Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 11 Chapter 10 Verse 8.
ŚB 11.10.8
vilakṣaṇaḥ sthūla-sūkṣmād
dehād ātmekṣitā sva-dṛk
yathāgnir dāruṇo dāhyād
dāhako ’nyaḥ prakāśakaḥ
Synonyms
vilakṣaṇaḥ — having different characteristics; sthūla — from the gross; sūkṣmāt — and the subtle; dehāt — from the body; ātmā — the spirit soul; īkṣitā — the seer; sva-dṛk — self-enlightened; yathā — just as; agniḥ — fire; dāruṇaḥ — from firewood; dāhyāt — from that which is to be burned; dāhakaḥ — that which burns; anyaḥ — other; prakāśakaḥ — that which illuminates.
Translation
Just as fire, which burns and illuminates, is different from firewood, which is to be burned to give illumination, similarly the seer within the body, the self-enlightened spirit soul, is different from the material body, which is to be illuminated by consciousness. Thus the spirit soul and the body possess different characteristics and are separate entities.
Purport
It is analytically demonstrated in this verse that one should never falsely identify the ego with the material body. Such misidentification is called false ego, or material illusion. The following question may be raised. Since it is commonly known that the Supreme Personality of Godhead enlightens the conditioned soul, why is the term sva-dṛk, or “self-enlightened,” used in this verse? Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura explains that although the Supreme Personality of Godhead certainly furnishes consciousness to the living entity, the living entity, being endowed with the potency of the Lord, has himself the capacity to revive and expand his pure consciousness. He may therefore be considered, in a secondary sense, self-enlightened. The example may be given that gold or silver domes brilliantly reflect the rays of the sun. Although the light comes from the sun, the inherent properties of gold and silver can also be considered causes for the brilliant reflection, since other substances do not possess suitable properties to reflect the sun’s light. Similarly, the spirit soul can be considered sva-dṛk, or self-enlightened, because he possesses characteristics by which he can brilliantly reflect the potency of the Personality of Godhead, thus illuminating his existential situation, just as a gold or silver dome shines due to its reflective properties.
A nice example is given in this verse to illustrate the different characteristics of the body and soul. Fire, which burns and illuminates, is always different from that which is burned for illumination. It may be said, however, that fire is present in an unmanifest form within wood. Similarly, in the conditioned life of ignorance, the spirit soul is present, though unmanifest, within the body. The enlightened condition of the living entity can be compared to the act of arousing fire within wood. Just as fire quickly burns wood to ashes, similarly the spirit soul, when enlightened, burns to ashes the darkness of ignorance. We are conscious of the body; therefore it may be said that the body is illuminated by consciousness, which is the energy, or symptom, of the spirit soul. Identifying the body and soul as one is just as foolish as considering fire and wood to be the same. In both cases, the intimate circumstantial connection between fire and wood or between the soul and the body does not alter the fact that fire is different from wood or that the soul is always different from the body.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So, here, example is given to show the difference between the soul or the atma and the material body. And the soul here is called sva-dṛk, which means self-seen, seeing the self. So, such words are often used in relation to the soul as well as the Supreme Lord. So, the individual jiva by his nature can perceive things. And he can perceive himself. In that sense, we can say he is independent. And the Lord is also conscious, so He also perceives by Himself. He does not require somebody else to perceive by Him. But we also know that the jiva is dependent on the Lord. So, he is not completely independent in that he can see things.
So, even fire or light is also called, it is not called sva-dṛk, but it is called sva-prakāśakaḥ. So, it illuminates itself. So, the fire reveals its own form. And then it reveals other forms, which are in darkness. We don’t need another fire to reveal the flame. It reveals itself and it reveals other things. However, there is also a difference between a flame and a jiva. Though the flame reveals it’s own form, it does not have awareness of itself. But the atma is also aware of itself. And that is the, we say, a conscious being, whereas the flame is not. So, the example of light or fire is often given to describe the jiva or the Supreme Lord. So, another name of the Lord is Jyoti, light. Or Param Jyoti, Supreme light. And similarly, the jiva also is light. So, that indicates that the jiva or the Supreme Lord are conscious beings, who can be aware of objects and are also aware of themselves and reveal their own forms. But, as I said, if we analyze very carefully, the jiva is not completely independent in his perceptions. He can perceive and he can reveal things and reveal himself, because he is permitted by the Lord. So, his consciousness depends upon the Supreme Lord and his consciousness. But the Lord allows each jiva to operate his own consciousness. So, the jiva is different from the body.
So, the example I’ve given here of the fire. And the piece of wood. So, of course, the fire burns the wood. So, we can say they are related, because fire does not burn all substances, it only burns certain substances like paper or wood. So, there is a potency of fire in the wood, but we cannot say that the wood is fire. So, because there is a difference like that, we can say the same difference is there between the atma and the body. When the atma is present in the body, then, of course, the atma functions and gives consciousness to the body. So, they are related, definitely, but even if the body is separated from the atma, the atma is conscious, but then the body is not conscious. So, fire appears where there is wood, but fire can operate independent of the wood also. And the wood by itself does not automatically manifest fire. So, in this way, an example is given to show that there is difference between the jiva and his body.
So, why do we identify with the body? And that is because of ignorance. So, though by intelligence we know that wood is not fire, if one is very ignorant, one might say wood is fire. So, in the same way a fool will say, I am the body. So, this type of conclusion is there not only in people with no intelligence at all, but even if people are very intelligent, they may come to the same conclusion. So, there are many intelligent people in the modern world who say there is no soul, and it’s just the body, and the body has, develops its own consciousness. So, they say that consciousness is merely the by-product of material body. And that is maintained by the majority of scientists in the modern world. So, in other words, life comes from matter. Consciousness comes from matter. But, of course, we say the opposite [Laughs]. Life comes before the body. Consciousness is before the body. It’s in the atma, which is completely different from the body. So, though this is very current in the modern world, it is not rare, because even in the ancient world they had the same idea [Laughs].
So, though there were, of course, people who followed the vedas and understood the difference between soul and body, there were others who rejected the vedas. And they say the atma is the body. There is nothing separate from matter. So, there were a group of sages who maintained this. So, their head was Charvaka. So, he established his own philosophical school to maintain that we are the body [Laughs]. And, therefore, the only goal of life is to satisfy the body [Laughs]. So, it is not a new philosophy. It has been there in ancient times as well. Of course, in the modern world, it has become very strong. And a lot of intelligent people do not accept the scriptures. So, they maintain this stance that we are the body. However, for the welfare of the individual, the vedas give us this information that you are not the body. So, this is not simply to establish a different theory or to disagree with science. The goal of all of this is the benefit of the jiva.
So, many ancient sages understood that if we identify with the body, we can end up with a lot of suffering. So, they chose to follow the conclusions of the vedas. And within the vedic literature, we have very nice information about who we are. We are not the body. We are the soul. So, gaining this knowledge gives some satisfaction. So, truth itself is satisfying. But, more than knowledge, we also need realization. So, to establish that realization, then we have processes like jnana yoga and astanga yoga. And, if one realizes that one is not the body, one is the soul, then, there is a solution to all of our problems, because you get liberation. You don’t have birth and death anymore. So, by realization of the truth, we can then stop the whole process of taking birth in the material world. So, that is a solution to the problem of suffering in the world. But, as we see in this section and the previous section as well, that is not the end of knowledge. Not only we should realize we are not the body, we are the soul, we should also understand the soul is dependent upon the Supreme Lord. And, when we realize that there is another entity, the Supreme Lord, and we establish a relationship with Him, then we can actually get happiness. So, that is the benefit for the jiva. This is the way in which the jiva can get the highest happiness.
So, to establish a Vaishnava philosophy over an impersonal philosophy, the goal is not simply to defeat the opponent. The idea is that if the jiva accepts the Vaishnava philosophy, he can get greater benefit. But, of course, that is always a choice of the individual. And, most individuals do not even know what is good for themselves. So, everybody has to be educated. But the education may take place in stages. So, the first step is to at least give people an idea that you are not the body. And to do that, then we have examples like this given, the fire and the wood. And after accepting that fact, then we can start practicing to realize it. And, then we can introduce the idea of the Supreme Lord. Okay. Hare Krishna.
Q & A :
1.) Maharaj, you have mentioned here that the consciousness is coming from the soul, light. Mostly Mayavadis always they think that God is light. What is mentioned? Illumination is the knowledge or is it some kind of light coming out? For example, in the purport it’s given like diamond and gold has illumination, light.
Well, even for the Mayavadi, they cannot take light literally because light is material. So, obviously Brahman cannot have material light attached to it. It has no qualities, it has no things like that. So, we can’t even say that it emits a light because there is only Brahman, there is no light [Laughs]. Yeah, the scriptures describe Brahman as Jyoti or Param Jyoti or whatever and they will explain that as simply a metaphor. To indicate that Brahman is conscious. So, it’s, in that sense self-illuminating.
2.) Maharaj, one of the significant qualities of the Lord is His merciful nature. However, the arrangement that’s been made, the mass of the population are not attracted to spiritual life at all, which means the arrangement does not in one sense apparently seem sufficient for the jiva to get attracted to spiritual life.
So, for people without faith, they are given the process of karma yoga. And they are encouraged to satisfy their material desires by worshipping devatas [Laughs]. So, the benefit there is, at least they have some dependence upon a higher authority for their, getting their sense gratification. So, by offering to the devata, they understand they cannot be completely selfish. They can only get something if they give something [Laughs]. So, this is encouraging them to not be so stingy [Laughs]. So, once dharma is established for them, then they can go for nishkama karma yoga. So, they become more detached from the enjoyment aspect of karma yoga. Then they can start offering everything to the Supreme Lord. So, this is an introduction to the process of bhakti.
3.) Does Brahman have senses like eyes, tongue, etc?
Oh, for the Mayavadi, no. Can’t. There’s no use. There’s nothing to see. There’s no form.
4.) Maharaj, the person who chants the holy name without initiation, will be out of birth and death?
Well, even Ajamila was beyond birth and death [Laughs].
5.) In one sense, the understanding the soul even for a sadhaka does not seem to be difficult. But when it comes to practical application, it’s not so easy and it seems to be quite difficult, Maharaj.
So, jnana and vairagya are natural by-products of the development of bhakti. So, the more one advances in bhakti, the more one realizes one is not the body.
6.) How is the bliss of Brahman experienced?
Actually, the Vaishnavas say it’s not real bliss [Laughs]. In fact, Ramanujacharya says it is not even an experience [Laughs]. Because in the state of Brahman, there is no awareness of any object. So, Ramanujacharya says such a thing does not exist. If it’s conscious, you’re conscious of something [Laughs]. So, even the Mayavadis will say that yes, we cannot say, give attributes to Brahman like even bliss or knowledge, etc. They are not qualities of Brahman. So, they say these words merely indicate the absence of ignorance, the absence of suffering. So, it’s a state of negation of the material body [Not clear] [Laughs].
7.) What is the difference between visishtadvaita and acintya bhedabheda tattva?
Well, in visishtadvaita, it is advaita. So, it is oneness with qualification. Dvaita philosophy of Madhva is no oneness at all. Only difference. So, we say oneness and difference. Not oneness with a little difference, but oneness and difference. So, we put more emphasis upon the difference.
8.) The body which attains Brahmajyoti, whether it is spiritual or material?
No such thing as body because there is no forms in Brahman [Laughs].
9.) As kali yuga progresses, there will be more sinful people. Does it mean that people can’t practice any yoga process in the future times?
Well, definitely, as kali yuga progresses, karma yoga, jnana yoga and astanga yoga become more or less impossible.
10.) Does atma become all-pervading because of Brahman realization after giving up the body?
All-pervading when? Mukti?
Devotee: No Maharaj. She’s gone.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, the atma, as we know, is a small particle. And the Supreme Lord is called Vibhu, which means all-pervading. So, they are quite different even if the jiva is liberated. However, in the Brahman state, the jiva, because he is liberated from the material body, and he feels one with Brahman, then he has a feeling of being all-pervading, even though he doesn’t change his particle nature.
11.) How Vaishnavas identify Brahman? Do they identify as servant of Krishna with all spiritual senses like eyes and hands, etc?
Well, we can call Brahman Para Brahman, which is just Krishna [Laughs]. Or we can explain Brahman as the Bhagavan minus all of His shaktis, so He doesn’t manifest a form, qualities or activities.
12.) What does Brahman realization mean for a jivan mukta?
Well, if he is an impersonalist, a jnani or a yogi, it means oneness with Brahman, no form, no qualities, no activities.
13.) Maharaj, I request you to explain Visishtadvaita further.
Well, will they understand it [Laughs]? Well, they can read books on it. The relationship of jiva and matter with the Lord is the relationship of quality with object. So, an object like a pot is qualified or visishta with brownness, color of brown or whatever, different qualities. So, the quality is not the object but it’s intimately related with the object. If we take the qualities away from the object, does the object exist? So, there’s a oneness between the Supreme Lord and the jivas and prakrti like that. So, in that sense there’s oneness.
14.) Maharaj, I request you to explain the features of jnana as a by product of bhakti.
So, when we say that jnana automatically arises, that means that, whatever is in jnana, that is differentiation of body from soul. We can realize that. But it does not include merging in Brahman.
15.) I request Maharaj, what is jivan mukta for a Krishna conscious person? One of the purport Prabhupada mentioned this. Could you please explain?
Well, jivan mukta for a devotee means he has got prema.
Devotee: Maharaj, it’s not clear about the bliss the jivan mukta feels.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Which jivan mukta?
Devotee: I’m not sure Maharaj, just came on the online. It’s not clear about the bliss the jivan mukta feels because it is said Sukadeva was absorbed in Brahman, was experiencing bliss before he heard about Krishna also.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: The bliss is the atmarama bliss. They are satisfied with the realization of atma. They are not the body.
16.) Does the Paramatma live?
Well, Paramatma in the jiva.
Devotees: Grantharaj Srimad Bhagavatam ki jai!!! HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj ki jai!!! Srila Prabhupada ki jai!!!