Diksa traditions | HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj |ISKCON JAPAN | May 8, 2025
Om Namo Bhagavate Vāsudevāya
Om Namo Bhagavate Vāsudevāya
Om Namo Bhagavate Vāsudevāya
nama om vishnu-padaya krishna-preshthaya bhu-tale
srimate bhaktivedanta-svamin iti namine
namas te sarasvate deve gaura-vani-pracharine
nirvishesha-shunyavadi-pashchatya-desha-tarine
jaya sri-krishna-chaitanya
prabhu nityananda
sri-adwaita gadadhara
shrivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrinda
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
This is again about Dīkṣā [Laughs]. And I think the last two evenings we were talking about Dīkṣā [Laughs]. It’s also in ISKCON it becomes quite an important event. And infact maybe we can say it’s the most important ceremony in a devotee’s life. At the same time, most of the devotees who take Dīkṣā don’t understand the meaning of Dīkṣā. And for many, unfortunately, it becomes more of a title. If you’re initiated, you’re better. If you’re not initiated, you’re not so good [Laughs]. It’s like getting some degree for a course or something [Laughs]. Of course that’s also one function of Dīkṣā, I suppose, but it’s not the most important thing.
And we see that Caitanya Mahaprabhu himself, when he preaches, does not really talk about Dīkṣā. He’s more interested in developing realization through chanting Hare Krishna, which doesn’t need Dīkṣā. So if we put too much emphasis on Dīkṣā for the wrong reasons, we’re bound to get into problems. In many lectures, Prabhupada said Dīkṣā means initiation and initiation means starting a process. And he never says it’s just a ceremony by which suddenly you develop some new qualities [Laughs]. So in its most positive sense, we can say that Dīkṣā is a sign of surrender. It’s a sign we’re seriously going to dedicate ourselves to Krishna.
However, there are various types of Dīkṣā. And when we go to the scriptures, then sometimes the word is used in different ways. So there are many types of Dīkṣā, but we’ll simplify that and just talk about two [Laughs]. So one is the Vedic Dīkṣā. So this is a ceremony by which you get a Vedic mantra called Gayatri. So Vedic Dīkṣā is getting Gayatri mantra that’s considered the most important mantra in the Vedas. And if you get this mantra, you’re qualified to study the Vedas. Vedas are one type of Vedic literature, the most ancient we could say [Laughs]. But in ISKCON, we don’t really study the Vedas much at all. So this is a type of initiation, and it has a certain ceremony to go with it. It’s one of the samskaras, or purification rites you go through, throughout your life.
So this is called Upanayanam. Now, only vaishyas, kshatriyas, and the brahmanas are allowed to take Upanayanam, sudras are not allowed. And for thousands of years, it’s been by birth [Laughs]. In other words, the sudras were not allowed to study the Vedas. So once you’ve got that mantra, then there’s also a procedure for carrying out that, chanting that mantra as well. So once you’ve got that mantra, then there’s also a procedure for carrying out that, chanting that mantra as well.
So this way of chanting is called Sandhya Vandana. And this is what, to be done three times a day, you chant the mantra, but you have to chant the mantra with all sorts of ceremonial mantras to go before and after it [Laughs]. So you have to purify yourself, you have to do water-sipping acaman, then you purify yourself again, and then you chant some mantras, then you do some offerings of water to the sun [Laughs].
Devotee : Spoon cleansing. Is that also ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Which one?
Devotee : Third one.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Third one.
Devotee : Acaman.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: This is cleansing again, yeah. You have to sprinkle water on yourself, basically.
There’s a mantra for getting rid of your sins [Laughs], then you go to offer water to the sun, then you chant the mantra, then you worship the sun again [Laughs]. Then you offer respects to the devatas in different directions, you offer respects to the sky and the earth, then you respect your family, ancient ancestors [Laughs]. So it’s a ceremony that takes maybe 15-20 minutes just to do it three times a day [Laughs]. So even today in India, at least among the Brahmins, they will generally try to do this for their sons.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Did you get it?
Devotee : No.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: No you didn’t.
Devotee : No, it’s in Brahmin family.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: You’re what? Kshatriya or Vaishya?
Devotee : Yes, we are Kshatriya.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Okay, they’re supposed to get it also [Laughs], but now it’s more prevalent among Brahmanas. So they still go through the ceremony, do the mantra to the child. Unfortunately, the children don’t go to the Gurukul and study the Vedas [Laughs]. So the father gives the mantra to the son, so technically he’s the Dīkṣā Guru [Laughs]. But generally, the father does not teach the son after that, he sends him to the Gurukul, and then he learns the Vedas from other teachers. So these other teachers are technically Śīkṣā Gurus.
Okay, so when we see many verses glorifying Guru in the Vedic literature, from Upanishads in particular, actually it’s the Śīkṣā Guru they are glorifying, not the Dīkṣā Guru. So this is the famous ‘tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet’ (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.2.12). It’s also, Prabhupada quotes that all the time. So you should approach a guru fixed in Brahman, skillful in scriptures, to know Brahman, that’s what he’s saying [Laughs]. Here’s the last two that is here.. He approaches a guru fixed in Brahman, skillful in scriptures, in order to know Brahman.
And here’s the famous one also ‘yasya deve parā bhaktiryathā deve tathā gurau’, to the great soul who has great bhakti for the lord and the guru. In other words, you have to worship Guru like you worship the Lord, meaning spoken out of the scriptures are revealed to that person. Okay, just like we have to worship Guru like we worship the Lord [Laughs]. And if we do that, then we get the meaning of scriptures [Laughs]. So you’ll find this often quoted also in our literature. So we actually assume it’s Dīkṣā Guru, but it’s not [Laughs]. It’s actually meant for Śīkṣā Gurus [Laughs].
There is another type of Dīkṣā called Yajna Dīkṣā, which is the third birth. But that’s a very specialized type of Dīkṣā used for Soma Yajna, which is a very specialized Yajna sacrifice. So that’s Vedic Dīkṣā as one.
Then we have Pancharatra Dīkṣā. This is Vaishnava Dīkṣā. So when we refer to Dīkṣā in our books, it’s actually Vaishnava Dīkṣā we’re talking about. So the difference is the mantra is not a Vedic mantra. And there’s no consideration of Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Sudra, anybody could take it if the Guru permits it [Laughs]. So these mantras are mentioned in the Pancharatric scriptures. Different Sampradayas will have different Vaishnava mantras. These mantras are whispered in the ear of the disciple, and they are secret, you’re not supposed to tell anybody. So [Laughs] we can’t say them aloud [Laughs], we can’t do Kirtan of the mantras [Laughs]. So then they’re for meditation, and they’re also for deity worship. They qualify you for deity worship. So just as the Vedic Gayatri mantra qualifies you for studying the Vedas, getting these Vaishnava mantras, Pancharatric mantras, qualifies you for Archana, or deity worship.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: [Laughs]
Devotee : Deity worship.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Deity worship, archana. So in our Sampradayas and our mantras, other Sampradayas, generally Vishnu mantras, we have Gauranga and Krishna mantras and Dīkṣā mantras.
Devotee : What do we have?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: We have Krishna and Gauranga mantras.
So, if you’ve read Brhad-Bhagavatamrta of Sanatana Goswami, there’s a story of a Brahmana, and he gets a mantra from Durga Devi [Laughs]. He’s praying to Durga, and she gives him a mantra [Laughs].
Devotee : Who gets a mantra from Durga?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Some Brahmana [Laughs]. So he begins to chant this mantra silently to himself [Laughs]. It’s actually a Krishna mantra [Laughs]. Later on, he meets Gopakumara, who also gets a mantra from his guru, the same mantra [Laughs]. So the guru gave him the mantra, then the guru disappeared, and he started chanting that mantra. So that constitutes Dīkṣā, they get a mantra. No ceremony, nothing, just getting a mantra.
In Bhakti ratnakara, this work here, then there’s a story of Nityananda. He just went to the guru and said, give me a Dīkṣā mantra, mantra Dīkṣā and save me, whatever. And then he got a Dīkṣā mantra from his guru, that was it [Laughs]. He got it from Lakshmipati, who was his guru [Laughs].
Caitanya Mahaprabhu got a mantra from Ishvara Puri. Apparently he got the same mantra, 10 syllable mantra. And there was not much ceremony attached to it, just got the mantra.
In the Gaudiya Sampradaya, the system was very simple, get the mantra, finished [Laughs]. However, in Hari Bhakti vilas, it’s a more complicated ceremony to go with it, and among the other Sampradayas, like Madhva Sampradaya or Ramanuja Sampradaya, they have a little more complicated system. So in Pancharatra, there is a method called panchasamskara. So this means literally five purification rites [Laughs].
Okay, so now this is an analysis of our initiation in two parts. So this is analyzed according to this panchasamskara [Laughs]. So there are five ceremonies, one is getting Tilak. Technically, they don’t wear Tilak, until they get Dīkṣā [Laughs]. Unlike ISKCON, we just put Tilak on everybody [Laughs]. There is something called Tapa, which means getting burned. You get branded with a hot iron brand, and you get Sankha and Chakra on your shoulders [Laughs]. [Laughs] You get a spiritual name like Krishna Das or Gaur Das or whatever like that. You get your mantra, Vishnu Mantra, Krishna Mantra, Narasimha Mantra, whatever. And then you get taught archana, deity worship. So these are the five rituals or symbols you get at initiation.
So this is still practiced by Ramanuja’s followers. They still do both of this and they get the brands and everything [Laughs]. But as I said, in our Sampradaya, generally, it was mainly the mantra [Laughs]. We see that Lord Caitanya didn’t get a name, Nithyananda didn’t get a name, or whatever, mantra finished [Laughs].
So I raised this up, because in ISKCON, also in Gaudiya Math, we have like a two-part system to initiation. So we call first initiation, second initiation. That’s a little bit of a strange connotation because you can only get one initiation according to scripture, but we have two parts, you can say it’s a two-part initiation [Laughs]. So we get the spiritual name, so that’s part of the Panchasamskara Dīkṣā. We don’t do any branding [Laughs]. Of course, you couldn’t put Tilak instead, Sankha ,Chakra, whatever, Tilak instead [Laughs]. And of course, Tilak can be either, but actually most people wear Tilak long before they get initiated. So that’s there.
So at second initiation, we actually get the mantras, which is the most important part [Laughs]. Then we’re qualified for deity worship. So our two-part initiation kind of follows this Panchasamskara to some degree. Kind of follows [Laughs], not exactly [Laughs]. Of course, the most important part is the mantra, as we see previously, generally they got the mantra, they may not even get the name. So mantra was the most important thing.
Okay so in our Dīkṣā, second initiation we get little extra things added. One is, we also get another mantra, we get the Vedic Gayatri Mantra. And in the Gaudiya Math, under Bhakti Siddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, they got that Vedic Mantra, but they also did the Samskara to go with it.
Devotee : What was the samskar?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: The Upanayanam samskar, this is where you get the thread and you get your Gayatri mantra, vedic mantra. And then there is a vedic fire sacrifice.
Of course, in ISKCON, we’ve done a little more than that [Laughs]. So we do vows at first initiation. Guru chants on the beads [Laughs]. And of course, we also do a fire sacrifice. That’s not there in Gaudiya Math, they don’t do a fire sacrifice. So first initiation, they just maybe get beads and maybe a name, that’s it finished. But we do the fire sacrifice plus we do the vows. So at this point, actually, the disciple is taking that Guru more or less as a Sikshu Guru. He’s not giving the Mantra that comes at second initiation. He’s not even giving Hare Krishna, because we’re chanting 16 rounds of Hare Krishna [Laughs] to get the first initiation [Laughs]. We also had beads before that to chant Hare Krishna, but he just gives new beads [Laughs].
Okay [Laughs], so this is just a diagram to show the basic break-up. So we have the first initiation, where you get your Tilak, you get a name. Second initiation, you get your Mantra, Archana, plus the extra things like the Gayatri Mantra, etc.
Devotee : Whats the next one ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Krishna das, get a name, yeah and also get and then second we get the Krishna Mantra, Secret Mantra, and we’re qualified for Archana, plus we get the Vedic Gayatri, and then we’re qualified Brahmana [Laughs]. And of course, we’re qualified Pancharatic Vaishnava, because we got the Vaishnava Mantra. So the thread goes along with the Gayatri Mantra there, for the men. Okay, but that’s Gaudiya Mutt.
So at ISKCON, we have vows, etc. Vows, and fire sacrifices. And we also carry on the Vedic Gayatri, but they even give it to the women, and they don’t do that in Gaudiya Mutt [Laughs]. The reason is, traditionally, the women didn’t go to the Gurukul, so they didn’t get the Mantra. Generally, I don’t think any women get Upanayanam samskar, I don’t think so [Laughs]. But somehow, Prabhupada gave the Gayatri Mantra to women also, so we do that [Laughs]. So that’s a little bit unique, they don’t do that in the Gaudiya Mutt.
So, we have this first initiation and second initiation. So, Prabhupada has made different statements about this. So, in one letter he says, second initiation is real initiation [Laughs]. First initiation is preliminary, just to make them prepared. And when he’s actually purified, then he’s recognized as a Brahmana, that means real initiation, second initiation. So, in one sense, yes, getting the Mantra, that’s the actual scriptural definition of Dīkṣā.
But in the other letter he says, “Why do you believe in the rumours that first initiation is not so important as the second, it is equally important. Actually first initiation is more important [Laughs]. Its actually equally important, then he says actually more important [Laughs].
He says, you can go without second initiation [Laughs]. If you have first initiation, that is sufficient [Laughs]. So, we have two opposite opinions, Prabhupada given [Laughs]. So, its said the first statement what about second initiation is where Sastra is equally proved. But as far as our movement, we depend more on chanting Hare Krishna. So, the first initiation, the Guru is encouraging us to chant Hare krishna, so in that sense, it’s more important.
So, there are statements, even we find in Caitanya-caritamrta, that say, Dīkṣā is very important. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into animal species. So, you got to take Dīkṣā, it says [Laughs]. So, then when people read that, they say, okay, I have to take Dīkṣā, or I have to go to hell [Laughs].
And then from Hari-bhakti-vilas, here it says, one should undergo Dīkṣā and be praised by Shiva. So, it’s very necessary we go through Dīkṣā.
Devotee : And then, what happens to him?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: You go to hell, if you don’t take it [Laughs].
So on the other hand we find in Caitanya Caritamrta it says at the time of initiation when a devotee is fully surrendered out of service then Krishna says to be good as himself. So again we have a kind of initiation is there, Dīkṣā. So, at that time, Krishna accepts the person as good as himself, so there’s emphasis on Dīkṣā.
Okay, but we also know that in Lord Caitanya’s movement, chanting Hare Krishna is more important than chanting deity mantras or doing archana.
And, we find in other scriptures as well, like Brhad-Bhagavatamrta, that chanting the holy name is considered the most powerful to attain Prema.
And in Caitanya Caritamrta, it says, one does not have to undergo Dīkṣā or initiation or other activities. One simply has to vibrate the holy name [Laughs]. And thus, the lowest class of man is delivered [Laughs]. So, very clearly, our main process of getting Prema is chanting Hare Krishna.
Okay, so Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati has made some interesting statements [Laughs]. So, he never gave Dīkṣā, that’s the second initiation, to others, he says, Harinama is sufficient [Laughs]. So, the success of Dīkṣā is in connection for Harinama, chanting Hare Krishna.
Whoever remains fixed in chanting inoffensively should be understood to have undergone Dīkṣā and all other proceedings. So, if you chant Hare Krishna, you’ve already got Dīkṣā [Laughs].
And then he also says Dīkṣā dhan, getting Dīkṣā is inferior to Harinamasrita. Those who surrender the holy name are better than those who take Dīkṣā. For those who don’t believe the name, and the name, that is Krishna’s name, are non-different, for them, Dīkṣā and deity worship is required [Laughs].
So, why do we make the Dīkṣā Guru more prominent? In Caitanya Caritamrita, there Krishnadas Kaviraj is saying, Śīkṣā Guru and Dīkṣā Guru should be treated equally. So, Prabhupada says, the word ‘Guru’ is equally applicable to the vartma-pradarśaka-guru, Śīkṣā Guru, and Dīkṣā Guru. And thus we accept the principle of enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this Krishna consciousness movement cannot spread all over the world. In other words, we have to treat the Śīkṣā Guru equally.
So, Prabhupada, in one lecture, says, you would take the Bhakti lata bija from the spiritual master, that is called initiation. By developing, by pouring water, hearing and chanting, then it will grow [Laughs].
Another letter he says, chanting Hare Krishna that’s the real initiation. So, then we can say, OK, Hare Krishna is more important, Śīkṣā and Dīkṣā Guru are equal, do we need a Dīkṣā Guru at all [Laughs]?
So, in Bhakti Sandarbha, Jiva Goswami actually says, he describes Dīkṣā, and he says, this is for rich householders [Laughs]. This gives a chance for the rich householders to spend his money [Laughs]. So its mainly for the wealthy householders, they can spend up the money that way rather than spending it on enjoyment [Laughs]. So therefore, we say not really necessary for your spiritual advancement [Laughs].
So for many people they don’t have to worship the deity directly they can do it in their mind or just go to the temple and see the deity [Laughs]. So, if you want to directly worship, then you do have to have Dīkṣā.
OK, so we have Śīkṣā Guru as well as Dīkṣā Guru. So, it’s not just one person to save us, we have Śīkṣā Gurus who could be many. So, the Dīkṣā Guru gives us a Dīkṣā mantra, this is also non-different from Krishna, so we chant that, we are going to get some spiritual value from that. Through the Śīkṣā Guru, we are getting teachings. So, those are very important for us.
Of course, we are chanting the name, we don’t even know who we got it from [Laughs], we are chanting the holy name [Laughs]. But, we do also have to have the teachings, so we know why we are chanting the name. And, of course, we have other Bhakti processes to help us as well. And, we have the books of Srila Prabhupada, and Śīkṣā Gurus are teaching that [Laughs]. So, through that, we are getting our knowledge necessary for our spiritual advancement.
OK, so we have our present system, and it looks like it’s a little bit lopsided because we put everything on Dīkṣā [Laughs]. So, one problem, of course is, we put so much emphasis on the Dīkṣā Guru, so therefore that worship is maybe out of proportion to that Guru’s spiritual status.
Devotee : Spiritual status?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, what actual spiritual level is that? The worship is out of proportion. So, the Dīkṣā Guru gives initiation, but how much teaching does he give? Often, other devotees are giving more teachings [Laughs]. So, therefore, they should get equal respect [Laughs]. Because scripture says, you have to worship your Guru as God, then many disciples will take the Dīkṣā Guru is more important than ISKCON [Laughs].
Devotee : Makes it more important than ISKCON ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, in other words, I’ll follow my Dīkṣā Guru rather than follow [Laughs] ISKCON, or the temple president, or anybody else [Laughs]. And, of course, because we put an emphasis on the Dīkṣā Guru, it becomes a post of power. So, it becomes like a material goal we should achieve, because that means success [Laughs].
So, for both the Guru and the disciple, it leads to a lot of problems. So, one problem is the Dīkṣā Guru falls down, and then the disciples feel betrayed, because they thought he was perfect. Śīkṣā Gurus are neglected, because the disciple will just worship the Dīkṣā Guru [Laughs]. With devotion going all to the Dīkṣā Guru, there is lack of regard for ISKCON. The disciple’s advancement is blocked, because he disregards other Vaishnavas, other than his Dīkṣā Guru. And, of course, Srila Prabhupada’s position becomes minimized.
Okay, so, should we change tradition? What is our tradition? Should we change something [Laughs]? So, we do have to probably change something, otherwise we get a lot of disunity in ISKCON, and we get all this false expectation of Guru, etc. So, maybe one thing is, to reduce the pomp of the ceremonies, of the initiation [Laughs]. I mentioned in the beginning that originally in the Gaudiya Sampradaya, it was very simple, just give the mantra, that’s it. Okay and, we should increase the respect given to Śīkṣā Gurus. One way of doing that, maybe make first initiation like a Śīkṣā ceremony instead, not Dīkṣā [Laughs]. And, maybe we should teach that the second initiation basically is for deity worship. And, we have to educate devotees on the real meaning of Dīkṣā and Śīkṣā.
So, we should respect all Gurus and all Vaishnavas. But, we also have to respect according to their level of advancement.
So, we should ultimately give our greatest respect to Srila Prabhupada.
Okay, Hare Krishna.
Q & A
1 ) The above solution given is like GBC’s proposal or ?
No, no, that was my suggestion. There could be other ways of doing things or whatever [Laughs]. But, we do have to do something, and it’s always a discussion among leaders and whatever, even among GBC, but they pass some things, statements, etc. But, it doesn’t seem to have much effect [Laughs]. People still continue the same mindset. They introduce the disciples course, so that was supposed to give some sort of balance, you know, Śīkṣā, Dīkṣā, all that sort of thing [Laughs]. They also have a course for Gurus [Laughs]. Inspite of that people still have their own ideas [Laughs].
Devotee : In the disciple courses, there are many places they are very clearly stated.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: In spite of that [Laughs], everybody goes off and worships their Guru [Laughs]. Of course some of them take it the day before the initiation, just learn something, write the exam and go out and they just forget about it [Laughs]. Maybe they should say, one year before, they should study and take the exam [Laughs]. Maybe it will sink in.
2) You know different Guru, there is a different system. Some people have to do Bhakti Sastri before taking initiation. Some people are very strict, some people are not so strict.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: It’s also there [Laughs].
Devotee : Some people have 5000.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: I just read this article by Bhakti Vijnana Swami on [Laughs] title ‘Ritualization of ISKCON’ [Laughs].
Devotee : ISKCON is becoming like a church.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Like a church.
So the idea is that as movements grow, like religions, like Christianity, whether it’s smaller than it grew, or if it’s smaller, it grows. As it begins to grow, then the original teachings get a little bit covered up, and it becomes a little more materialistic [Laughs]. And then the ceremonies actually become more or less like status symbols.
3) Maharaj is there any karma in doing this thing like karmas in Guru? Whatever you say, we should not do that. And if we do that, is there any karma for a disciple or Guru?
Well, of course, I think the other night I mentioned, I quoted from Nectar of Devotion, where Rupa Goswami says, making disciples and depending on your disciples and thinking that is advancement. Its not Bhakti at all [Laughs]. It creates obstacles to your Bhakti.
Devotee : Depending on the disciple?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: My advancement means I get to make more disciples [Laughs]. In other words, it becomes like a materialistic kind of thing. I got more followers, I’m more advanced.
Devotee : What about the groups? Guru based on group?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yes, that again disunites ISKCON. Because they tend not to follow any of the GBC rules or follow the temple presidents because they go off on their own or do whatever the Guru says, disunity.
Devotee : Maybe all the gurus in ISKCON meet together in a istaghosti and decide something for everybody, instead of each one going.. [Not clear].
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: We could try that but we got so many gurus now, I think we got like 80 gurus [Laughs], so the istaghosti is going to be larger [Laughs]. We do have what we called the Guru service committee, so that’s supposed to be like a watchdog and see if there is any problems. If the Guru is doing something strange and then they have to call him and speak to him [Laughs].
4) But Maharaj, if you please your Guru, Krishna is pleased. If somehow or other if Guru is pleased by the group, then also Krishna is pleased?
If the Guru is completely independent, that’s not a problem, but the Guru is actually a member of ISKCON, so therefore he has to agree to the rules of ISKCON. Of course, he should be willing to please Prabhupada [Laughs]. Prabhupada wanted to keep ISKCON unified.
Devotee : If the disciple pleases the Guru somehow, by doing all these things, adjustments, still Krishna will be happy on that disciple ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well what’s the most pleasing thing for the Guru, in the ideal sense? The most pleasing thing is, that he advances to Krishna [Laughs]. So if the order – kind of creates division in ISKCON, then that’s not good [Laughs].
Devotee : What about the Prabhupada disciples who become Guru, but they are not authorized by ISKCON? They feel like, OK, I can be Guru, I’m spiritually advanced, and I can be Guru.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So if you’re not in ISKCON, you’re free to do anything you want [Laughs]. You’re free to do that. If you’re very qualified, do it outside ISKCON. Don’t take ISKCON, so that he’s finished [Laughs].
Devotee: Who is eligible to become Guru in ISKCON ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So, eligibility, there are different standards you have to meet. And then we have approval of local devotees. So they judge that he is now following scripture, not deviating in anyway by conduct, so then he is qualified to initiate. Of course initiation etc becomes a little more important in ISKCON, a little more higher position, because of the disciples attitude taking the Guru as absolute. That’s what makes it problematic [Laughs] also for ISKCON.
Devotee : What if some devotee didn’t want to become a Guru ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Doesn’t have to. But what type of Guru – Siksa or Diksa ?
Devotee : Doesn’t matter.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: It’s up to people who are going to him. That’s what they want. He may want to be a Dīkṣā Guru, he may not want a Dīkṣā Guru.
5) So, as you mentioned about this excessive or disproportionate respect to Dīkṣā Guru within ISKCON, and it is very deeply ingrained in devotees. So, has GBC published some kind of a paper or are the initiating Gurus mandated to educate their prospective disciples in this? Because this is kind of important. It may have an impact on ISKCON’s unity in due course of time.
So, GBC has made I think, two statements on this issue. And I think those statements are also included in the ISKCON Disciples Course [Laughs]. So, therefore, everyone who is taking initiation should know about this [Laughs]. That course has been going on for how many years? Ten years? More, I think. So, we’re still getting the same results [Laughs] as before [Laughs]. Something is wrong, they’re not learning the course properly [Laughs].
Devotee : That is because the course is required for initiation. So, you say just study and pass the course.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah. So, that’s maybe they have to make a new rule for taking it so much beforehand. I don’t know. But then the other thing is maybe we have to do something else because it doesn’t sink in. So, maybe that’s why I said maybe adjust the Dīkṣā ceremony so that it’s not so up there, you know [Laughs].
Yeah. Another thing could be that GBC will issue a statement more or less a general statement about the status of our gurus that they’re not nitya siddhas, they are not this or not that or whatever at a certain level and they’re there to teach and that the gurus should say that to their disciples [Laughs].
Devotee : Maharaj, this is quite sensitive and emotional issue also, because sometimes when these things are discussed with the disciples, they get very much emotionally surcharged and to even talk about this thing is, bit [Laughs] quite sensitive, because unless and until it is coming from higher ups. And this other thing is about, groupism like to get the prospective initiates to get initiated by their own gurus, whoever is the preacher that is also very strongly prevalent in India at least.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah. That actually was I think a statement made long long ago that there should be no canvassing at all [Laughs], that was like 20 years old [Laughs]. Part of this also maybe the problem is that people who get initiated it becomes a materialistic thing and that’s why they like to canvas and do sorts of things like that.
6) Thank you Maharaj. So for preaching, we can do anything ? Because preaching is our main purpose right, we have Yukta Vairagya concept is there right, so if I’m preaching I can do anything, no rule applies to me because I am preaching ?
Well, you can do that if you’re not in ISKCON. If you’re in ISKCON you have to follow ISKCON rules [Laughs]. So there are rules for how to preach and where to preach and if other people are preaching, how you relate to those preachers, there are different rules like that so you gotta follow those rules otherwise we get chaos.
Devotee : I think it’s important that the preacher understand that you preach to people but they can choose their own guru, because otherwise it becomes okay now you have to take initiation from my guru.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah that’s what he was saying.
Devotee : My guru would be happy with me.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: That’s materialistic thing [Laughs]. In other words, we’re thinking that numbers is going to be as a measure of spiritual success of the guru or spiritual success of yourself [Laughs].
7) In ISKCON there is a competition. How many Bhagavatam sets you distribute? How many books you distribute? How many pamphlets you give? How many people you give? Number it has value. You cannot deescalate this. It’s a fact. Correct?
It is. But then again if numbers are the only thing, then you know even numbers of Bhagavad Gita etc, that’s not the only thing, because how many devotees you make. So you can’t depend on numbers [Laughs].
Devotee 1: Everything can be termed both spiritual and material. It depends on the practice.
Devotee 2: Maharaj, It’s seems like, Ritvik has less problems than ISKCON.
Devotee 3 : Ritvik follow a different concept. She’s saying they have less problems than ISKCON or they have similar problems because they focus only on Srila Prabhupada.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, there’s another problem there. They focus on their own leader. And he becomes like the guru. He’s the guru. And if they do anything out of them, then it’s out [Laughs]. It’s another system like an absolute guru system.
Devotee : So, instead of trying to change all these systems, like what problems have to be, is it better to focus on your own bhakti and sadhana or try to change all these things?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, so the idea is that, we have ceremonies, we have titles, we have Dīkṣā, etc. but in one sense it’s external. So they do have a function, but at the same time we cannot rely on that. So taking Dīkṣā does not guarantee you’re going to get prema. And even if you don’t have Dīkṣā, you can get prema [Laughs]. So it all depends on the quality of the sadhana of the particular person. So it depends on the.. let’s say maturity of the devotee. And as the Bhakti Vijnana swami was saying, because as you grow and you want to make more followers, then you simplify everything and you turn it into rituals and titles [Laughs] that way you get more members, but the quality will not be the same [Laughs].
Devotee : So it’s very important we train our own already existing devotees.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah.
Devotee : We are milk now.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah yeah.
Devotee : If we don’t continue to advance, then the mass of the body already then they remain Kanistha adhikari and then the fire you get to [ Not clear] black and white and quarrel.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah so proper training and sadhanas is very necessary.
Devotees : Thank you very much Maharaj. HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj Ki.. Jai !!