Bhakti ladder | HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj | Vojvodina, Serbia
In Caitanya Caritamrita Lord Caitanya describes that the Jivas are wandering in this material world, and by good fortune, sometimes a Jiva takes to the path of Bhakti. So, to take to the path of pure Bhakti is quite an honor. It’s also rare. It’s a great good fortune. So, anyone who starts that process is actually a very fortunate person, a very rare person. They may not continue also. You see, people start and then stop, or whatever, they go down again. That’s also not to be criticized, because at least they started something, and that will go with them life after life after life, unless, of course, they commit great aparadhas. So, whatever they can do in devotional service is always most fortunate, because from there they can continue and eventually become very steady in their Bhakti, whether it’s this life or next life.
So, in any case, to start the process of devotional service is very, very good fortune. It’s something, of course, like we see on the river, then we have the branches floating down the river, and once in a while, one of the branches comes to the shore and stops. In other words, everybody’s floating down the river of material world and going life after life, and then, by chance, one of the branches comes to the shore and stops its material existence. So, those Jivas who get the chance to practice devotional service, they are considered to be very, very fortunate. It’s a very great event, even if it is not that they’re completely practicing. Any contact is very, very good.
So, once we start, of course, the idea is we have to have some faith. We have to have some conviction. If we read Bhagavad Gita, we can’t question everything and say, Why? Why? Why? Krishna says you’re the soul, not the body. So, we should accept it. If we start questioning right there, then, of course, we have no faith. So, we have to have some basic faith. Faith that we are atma, or spiritual particle, and faith that there’s a Supreme Lord who has form, qualities, and activities, and that we are the servant of the Lord. So, that basic faith has to be there to begin the process of bhakti. Some people may not have that faith. They may have some interest in bhakti, but they don’t have that faith. That’s why they cannot continue later on. They may start because they do a few of the processes and actions, but because they don’t really accept that principle, ‘I’m the servant of God’, and you never continue. So, they don’t have real faith. So, that faith is the preliminary and then we get to start the process of devotional service. How? Because we get knowledge. Where do we get knowledge from? Books and devotees. And then we can start.
So, that’s what we call the Bhajana-kriya stage. Sadhu Sangha, then we get Bhajanakriya. Of course, that Bhajanakriya goes all the way through bhava stage, bhava and Prema. But in that Bhajanakriya, then we get all these old subdivisions, like Anartha-nivritti, Nishtha, Ruchi, Asakti, then we get to Bhava, which is actual realization of Krishna. And then Prema, when that becomes very mature in rasa. It may be difficult to judge these different stages, because everything is not external. And in Nectar of Devotion, Rupa Goswami says, you cannot understand the characteristics of a person in Prema. You may think it’s something like that, and you see somebody and say, he’s not in Prema. You don’t know [Laughs]. He may be in Prema, and he is completely, he looks like a beggar on the street or something. You don’t know [Laughs]. So, Prema is very, very difficult to understand. Bhava, of course, is almost at that stage.
If you look in the Madurai Kadambini of the Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakura, he describes each of these stages one after the other. And when he gets to Bhava and Prema, even when he gets to Asakti, the person is completely out of this world already [Laughs]. Not aware of this world. So people are going to call him crazy, because they don’t associate with people in the normal way. They have no interest in society and friends or whatever like that. Completely absorbed in Krishna. So it’s going to be very difficult to recognize those later stages of people. So before that even, of course, it may be difficult for most people to recognize the stages. But a devotee, to some degree, can recognize another devotee. And especially if you’re a little more advanced, you can recognize devotees who are equal or less advanced. So that is why we do have these stages of bhakti described. So that we can actually judge other people’s and our own progress by describing different stages. Otherwise, what’s the use of having stages at all? It’s no use [Laughs]. So it’s useful because, of course, it shows the progress of bhakti, but it’s useful for us because then we can judge where different devotees are situated. And that judgment is also necessary, if we are at what we call the Madhyama stage of bhakti, which is the healthy stage.
Well, a Madhyama means that we do accept, I am the servant of God. I accept the bhakti scriptures. I understand aparadhas. I understand mixed bhakti and pure bhakti, etc. all that. So that’s the beginning of pure bhakti, a Madhyama stage. Before that, it was bhakti abhasa or mixed bhakti or whatever. So the Madhyama must distinguish between different types of people. And we know from Bhagavatam, he distinguishes devotee from non-devotee. He avoids the non-devotees. Associates with devotees. He can recognize those who are lower, that is the Kanishtas, although they’re not real devotees yet. And he will preach to them. He recognizes the Supreme Lord, of course. And he also associates with equal devotees. And he also serves those who are superior in terms of bhakti. And it is said that, this is the key to his success. That he can recognize and treat different people and even different devotees differently. So to some degree, a devotee has to be able to distinguish different stages of devotees. Those who are lower, those are equal, those are higher [Laughs]. That much he has to do. And then his conduct is a little bit different with each of them.
So we know that there’s different interchanges between devotees. Six activities of devotees. To give and receive knowledge or whatever like that. To give and receive food [Laughs]. And to give and receive gifts [Laughs]. So obviously, if we’re preaching to the Kanishtas, the Madhyama is giving knowledge. And the Kanishta has to receive the knowledge. But on the other hand, if it’s a senior devotee, who’s higher, then we get the knowledge and he gives the knowledge. So it’s like, interchanges are a little bit different there. And the same goes with feeding and accepting food and gifts, etc. So there’s a little bit of a difference in how we treat different devotees. And the way we treat them, of course, that produces our advancement in devotional service. So in that sense, we do have to recognize to some degree.
As I said, we may not be able to recognize people in Bhava and Prema or whatever. And actually, another person in Prema can recognize another person in Prema. Another person in Bhava can recognize another person in Bhava. Below that, we may not be able to do anything. Of course, Vishvanath Chakravarti also says that generally, since Prema Bhaktas do not see differences, they don’t see the demon, they don’t see the devotee. Everybody’s a devotee. So they don’t preach really [Laughs]. That’s the normal position. Of course, there are exceptions like Narada Muni, etc. Prabhupada. But generally, they don’t see the difference. Often they’re in trance [Laughs].
So those who are actually preaching in this world will be the Madhyamas. The other ones are the preachers. So all the preachers are generally in that Madhyama category. Of course, now there is a little problem here. Because the scripture tells us, you accept Guru, and then you have to treat him like God. So we take that literally, of course. That’s what we do. Of course, in ISKCON, that’s kind of what they do also [Laughs]. People do like that. But if we look at other Sampradayas, they’re not so radical [Laughs]. Yes, they understand you treat Guru as God. At the same time, they also understand, okay, he’s there [Laughs]. Maybe Madhvacharya is more like God, or Ramanujacharya is more like God. So they grade their respect according to the level of advancement. Even though it says, okay, you got to get your Guru, and then you got to worship him like God. But they don’t just exclusively worship that one person as God, even though he’s their Diksha Guru or whatever. So that’s a little bit of a more mature understanding of the idea of Guru.
And of course, in ISKCON itself, it causes problems if we project artificially a status on the Guru if he isn’t. It’s not good for the disciple, it’s not good for the Guru, because it’s artificial. So to some degree, we should practically be able to judge, I guess. I don’t want to call it judge [Laughs], but estimate [Laughs] the level and accordingly, we give our respect and our worship to Gurus and whatever like that. Interestingly, of course, when the talk is of Guru, generally, it’s called [Not clear] Spiritual Master or Guru or whatever. We assume it is the Diksha Guru. But actually, it’s equal to the Siksa Guru as stated in Caitanya Caritamrta, Siksa Guru, Diksha Guru and there’s a distinction there. In ISKCON, we don’t have quite a distinction like that. It’s either Guru means Diksha Guru, and that’s it [Laughs]. And then he’s the one you treat like God. But the scripture actually, generally, when they’re saying you worship Guru like God, they’re actually referring to the Siksa Guru [Laughs]. So all those statements from Chandogya Upanishad, Svetesvatara Upanishad, Mundaka Upanishad, you know, you treat the Guru like God, and then all the scriptures, meaning of scriptures are revealed. That’s actually a Siksa Guru, not a Diksha Guru. So we do have, of course, Guru. And then we say, well, Guru means Diksha Guru. We treat him like that. But we can also apply that to Siksa Guru equally. And maybe more, depending on the level of advancement.
So in the Krishna Bhajanamrta by Narahari, there he says that the Gurus may be on different levels. Siksa Guru, and many Siksa Gurus, and Diksha Guru. According to the level of advancement, then you give more worship to the more advanced, and a little bit less worship to the less advanced, natural. So, in other words [Laughs], we have to be able to start distinguishing, even among Gurus [Laughs], to some degree, in how we give our respect, or whatever like that. So, therefore, there is distinctions and levels of Gurus, its not that everybody’s on the topmost stage of Prema. And, as we said, Vishvanath Chakravarthi says, actually, most Gurus, the teachers and preachers, are going to be in the Madhyama category, actually.
But then, of course, we have many levels of Madhyama. And according to their level, as much as we can discern, then we will give respect. So, as far as your question about how do we distinguish, of course, it is a little bit difficult to distinguish other people. Scripture, sometimes, makes it a little easier [Laughs]. They don’t worry about the realization part so much, they say your knowledge part. So, if you know the scripture, that scripture, that scripture, you’re on this level, the scripture, like the Sri Sampradaya [Laughs]. So, the Uttama is, one who knows all the scriptures, all these different things of, you know, the Acharyas, the one who knows maybe half of them is on the next level, the one who knows a little bit is on the next level, and they just grade their Gurus in that way, according to knowledge [Laughs]. So, that’s practical. Of course, it’s not absolute also, because we’re also interested in realization, whether, you know, they’re on Ruchi or Asakti, of course, we’re interested also in their spiritual, not just their knowledge level. But that’s a practical way of judging people also [Laughs]. But it’s not everything, obviously. So, as far as, you know, ultimately, though scripture is important, we’re looking for the actual level of realization. But as I said, it may be difficult to discern in all people. But, as a disciple, or as a devotee, probably the only way we can judge a person, or estimate a person, is by the actual inspiration we get to advance in our devotional service [Laughs]. So, that person who can encourage us to advance and become enthusiastic, to follow more, then we will give more emphasis to that particular Guru, whether it’s Siksa Guru or Diksa Guru or whoever. And that would be a reflection of his own standing as a devotee.
In Caitanya Caritamrita, there’s this pastime, the people of Navadvipa, they go to Puri to see Lord Caitanya, stay for 4 months, and then go back. So, one year, they asked Lord Caitanya, who is a Vaishnava? Vaishnava ke. And then Lord Caitanya says, anyone who chants Hare Krishna once is a Vaishnava. So, they were a little bit shocked [Laughs] at that. But they didn’t say anything and they went back to Bengal. But when they got back, they began talking. Why did Lord Caitanya said once, chant once and you are a Vaishnava? That’s somewhat practical. So many people chant once and they are demons, or whatever like that. So, they discussed among themselves. So, they went back next year, and they asked Lord Caitanya, who is a Vaishnava? And Lord Caitanya said, anyone who chants constantly, name of the Lord, he is a Vaishnava. So, they were satisfied. Then they thought, well, I wonder if Lord Caitanya remembered what he said the previous year. It’s contrary [Laughs]. So, they started talking again. So, they went back the next year, and they asked, who is a Vaishnava? And Lord Caitanya, anyone upon seeing who inspires you to chant the Holy Name, he’s the best Vaishnava [Laughs].
So, he gave three different answers. So, from that, they understood that he was talking of different levels. If you chant once, okay, you’re a devotee of some sort. And of course, if you chant with faith, that’s very good. Even if it’s once, very good. Because it says in Bhagavatam that a person who once, even if he is a dog-eater, chants the name of the Lord purely once, he’s better than a Brahmana. He has destroyed all of his prarabdha karma instantly. And he’s automatically qualified to do the sacrifices that a Brahmana can do. So, even chanting once purely is very good. A Vaishnava of sorts, but if you’re chanting constantly, obviously better. But there he says the best one is one who can aspire others to chant purely. Then he would be in a higher category. So, that’s why this phrase is one who inspires others. We can judge to some degree that he has some higher level of realization. So, that’s maybe a simple way we could judge in terms of others.
The other use of these levels, of course, is for our practical advancement. And that’s probably the main reason why Vishvanath Chakravarti wrote the Madhurya Kadambini to show these different stages, because it becomes practical for ourselves to judge our own level of advancement in devotional service. And it gets different symptoms of each level, so we can practically see in our own life. We may not be able to see others, but we actually know internally where we’re at [Laughs]. So, we can see where we are. And, of course, that is valuable, because by doing that then we can understand what’s the next level I have to get to. Like in, you go to school, then you go to grade, first grade, second grade, third grade. So, when you’re in the first grade, you say, okay, you have to get to twelfth, go to university after you graduate from the twelfth standard. So, that’s like an abstract goal for the child, you know, twelfth grade, you don’t know anything about it. But at least, okay, you’re in grade one. Next, you’ve got to get to grade two [Laughs]. Next, you’ve got to get to grade three. So, at least a little more practical, they’ve got something they can get to aspire for next. So, if we can situate ourselves in devotional service, then we can see what’s the next stage I have to get to. And then we have to begin to practice to get to that stage. So, in that way, it becomes practical for us. So, the devotee, therefore, has to be introspective.
An example is given of Lord Caitanya in the Caitanya-caritamrta, again, you plant the seed of bhakti, or actually Guru and Krishna, by the mercy of Guru and Krishna, you get the seed of bhakti, and you plant it in the heart, not the physical heart, obviously. So, it’s in the Jiva. We get the seed of bhakti. Once we have faith, which is like a favorable field, a fertile field, when we put the seed in, then it can sprout. And then we have to raise it. So, we make the plant grow through the different angas of bhakti, like hearing, chanting, remembering, deity, worship, etc. And we make the plant grow like that. So, that’s the general process, and it goes through these different stages. It’s a little plant that has two leaves. It grows bigger, bigger, bigger, eventually it gets flowers, and then it gets fruit. Again, the plant grows in different stages. So, who’s responsible for growing the plant? The gardener. And who is the gardener? Yourself [Laughs]. So, each person has to look at the plant and judge how to make it grow more. In other words, we have to be a little bit introspective in order to cultivate the bhakti creeper. And then, we have to see if maybe it’s not growing nicely, then we have to do something, put more water on it or whatever [Laughs], to make it grow. So, there has to be a little introspection on the part of the devotee. He is the gardener, and he has to look after the plant.
We know that some gardeners are not very good gardeners, because they put the seeds in the thing, and then they forget about it for three months and come back, and nothing’s growing [Laughs]. So, the gardener, he has to take care of the garden and be attentive to it. So, each individual has to take care of his own bhakti creeper. And that requires, of course, activities which are external, but it’s also internal. Because bhakti is an internal thing. So, he has to examine the plant and see how to make it grow more and more and more. So then, of course, if we’re completely ignorant, then we don’t know anything about gardening. We say, okay, plant the seed and make it grow. So, you plant the seed and leave it there, and then you don’t do anything, because you don’t know what to do. So, the devotee does have to have some knowledge about how bhakti should grow, the different stages, and then how to make it grow more, whatever.
So, therefore, we do have to recognize the different stages of bhakti itself and situate ourselves somewhere in there, then see how to get to the next level. Next level, like that. So, in that sense, there has to be a little introspection to judge our own level of advancement. So, of course, most devotees are going to be in this Bhajana Kriya, anartha nivritti, nistha stage, somewhere in there. 99% of the devotees are probably going to be in that area [Laughs]. They’ve got the seed of bhakti, they have the faith, and they’re practicing the bhakti, and they’re destroying the anarthas, and if they’re steady, then they’ve got to that nistha stage. So, most of the devotees are kind of in that stage, and maybe some are getting up to Ruchi. So, in any case, we have to see our level of advancement, etc. So, that’s one of the purposes of Vishvanath Chakravarti in writing Madhurya Kadambini, so that the devotee can see which stage he’s at, and see where he has to go next.
So, in that process of growing, then, there’s actually, we have, you know, Bhajan Kriya means doing the process of bhakti with all the angas, but it can take two forms. Sadhana is the first stage, and then, of course, we have Bhava and Prema, so you have three stages. But, in the Sadhana stage, where we go from Shraddha to Bhajana Kriya, anartha nivritti, ruci, asakti, and that’s all Sadhana. There’s two ways in which you can do hearing, chanting and remembering all the 64 Angas. One is Vaidhi, the other is Raganuga, so, two distinct ways of doing it. What’s the difference? If you do Vaidhi Bhakti, your realization will be slightly different from if you do Raganuga Bhakti. You may worship Krishna in both Vaidhi or Raganuga. If you worship in Vaidhi, you can realize Krishna, but with awe and reverence. So, not in Gokula [Laughs]. Maybe in Dwaraka, or Aishwarya Goloka. If you worship in Raganuga, then you get to Goloka, or Gokula, or Vrindavan, the spiritual world. That’s the difference in the two things.
What’s the difference? One is the Vaidhi Bhakti. We begin by following all of our things, because Scripture tells us, our Guru says to do it, and we say, do this, do this, but we follow [Laughs]. Because it’s a rule in Scripture. That Vidhi turns into Vaidhi Bhakti. Vidhi means the rule, Vaidhi Bhakti means Bhakti according to the rules of Scripture. Nothing wrong with that, because, of course, even Raganuga follows Scripture, but the mood that develops is one of reverence for the Supreme Lord, through following all those rules. And that’s why when you get your realization of Krishna, it’s also got this Aishwarya aspect to it, which is not there in Vrindavan, so you can’t go to Vrindavan.
So, the other process, of course, is Raganuga, which means following. Anuga means to follow. Raga, actually it means Raga atmaka Bhaktas. And the word Raga means a more spontaneous Bhakti, in which we don’t see Krishna as Supreme Lord. So that Bhakti is present only in Vrindavan. Nanda, Yasoda and the Gopis and the Cowherd boys, most people. So, Raganuga means to follow those for your inspiration to do Bhakti to the people of Vrindavan. That same type of mood as they’re doing. So, we follow after them. Which means we take our inspiration, not because rules say, but we’re trying to develop the same spontaneous attitude as the people of Vrindavan and that leads to realizing Krishna not as, you know, Supreme Lord, but simply as friend, lover, child, etc. in Vrindavan.
So, apart from the following aspect, there is more emphasis on mind, Smaranam, and things like that, in the Raganuga process. So its a little more internalized. They do not reject the other process. There’s still chanting and kirtan and deity worship and so many things going on, but they do put a lot of emphasis upon Smaranam, or remembering the Lord in his pastimes and trying to serve him in that way. So, a little bit of difference there also. Raganuga is a little more internal in that sense. So, some people may find it a little difficult because they cannot control their mind so much. So then in the Bhakti sandarbha, Jiva Goswami says, well, if you cannot really follow Raganuga completely, then you could mix the two together [Laughs], Vaidhi and Raganuga, and do a combination for some time, and later on maybe you could just do Raganuga or whatever. Which means you could take support of a lot of the rules and regulations that we follow and at the same time do some of the practices of Smaranam, etc. in relation to Krishna and try to follow after the inhabitants of Vrindavan.
The whole Gaudiya Sampradaya by its basic nature of worshipping Radha and Krishna in Vrindavan, gives it that Raganuga aspect, because we’re not interested in Aishwarya there [Laughs]. So, simply because they worship Radha, Krishna, or even cowherd boys and Krishna, or whatever. Those different relationships. So, it’s actually pointed to Raganuga or whatever. And in general, the Sampradaya, up to the point of Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur, never really thought of Vaidhi Bhakti at all in our Sampradaya [Laughs].
But then Bhakti Siddhanta Sarasvathi Thakur, and Srila Prabhupada, they kind of emphasize the Vaidhi aspect. One of the reasons for that is, that they saw that the Raganuga is what Lord Caitanya’s teachings. People take that in a little more free way, liberal way [Laughs]. And Raganuga means, we don’t have to follow all the rules and regulations or whatever like that, or more relax in following basic rules and regulations, that’s not the meaning of Raganuga [Laughs]. So, therefore, they become very lax in following the rules, and in fact if they were worshipping Radha, Krishna, then they get mixed up in Madhurya Rasa and they start thinking they’re Gopi, or they’re thinking they’re Krishna, or all sorts of things. So, it leads to a lot of apa sampradayas as well. So, therefore, they didn’t emphasize that in the beginning stages, and they put more emphasis on the Vaidhi aspect of it.
In spite of that, we should not think of our ISKCON as just following Vaidhi Bhakti, because obviously we’re worshipping Radha Krishna in the temple. And it’s not Vaidhi Bhakti in the sense that Sri Sampradaya or Madhava Sampradaya follow Vaidhi Bhakti. It’s much, much different [Laughs]. That is very strict and very formal. So, yeah, we follow Deity Worship Standards and whatever like that, but it’s nothing like what they follow. We follow Pancaratric standards, but still it’s not like Hari Bhakti Vilas, it’s much simplified. So, though we do follow aspects of Vaidhi Bhakti, especially in Deity Worship, it is not so much emphasis upon all those rules and regulations. So, there’s a little more freedom there for devotees to more spontaneously serve the Deity. So, even if we are doing Vaidhi Bhakti, as such, it’s not pure Vaidhi Bhakti at all. It’s actually a mixture as it is. So, anyway, we can have that mixture, if we cannot do Raganuga completely, we can do Vaidhi as well. The Sampradaya of Vallabhacharya, which is very prominent in Gujarat, their whole Sampradaya actually is Raganuga [Laughs]. There’s no Vaidhi Bhakti, it’s just Raganuga, spontaneous attitude towards Krishna, usually as a baby or whatever, Vatsalaya Rasa or whatever like that. So, it can start very early even. But, our Acharyas, especially Prabhupada and Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur, they didn’t emphasize that so much in the beginning stages.
Okay, so does that answer your question. So, we are in a sense mixing the two together, maybe with a little bit of emphasis on the Vaidhi aspect more than Raganuga, but it’s not really Vaidhi like other Sampradayas like Madhva Sampradaya or Ramanuja Sampradaya. It’s much different already [Laughs].
Okay, any question there?
Q&A
1.) Maharaj, I have a practical question. We see that, for example, Prabhu is teaching martial arts. We went to the martial arts ourselves early, and we have different belts for different stages. We have a Master who assesses us from one stage to the next stage. Right? We have a white belt, yellow belt, pink belt..
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Not pink [Laughs].
Devotee : Okay, whatever.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : The blue belt, that’s a green belt, orange belt, that’s a black belt.
Devotee : Right, so the point is that, my point is that, as a Bhakti Yogi, the spiritual Master is in shaping us, but he’s not telling us, okay, you are in this stage, and now you have, let’s say, a yellow belt. No. Practice the next level.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Okay, yeah.
Devotee : Then we can, the Master is assessing us. Because I can go to the Master and say, oh, I am a ninja black belt. He say, okay, let’s show me. Boom, boom, boom. He say, no, you’re not. Like so many people we see on YouTube, they say, oh, I’m a martial artist. They’re going to fight with somebody and they smash them. So, I can believe whatever I want, because I’m ahead and some people cannot. But why not the Master can assess us to what level I am actually? So, that’s my question. Maybe he’s going to establish the different belts,
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : [Laughs].
Devotee : different levels, maybe, so that people can understand, okay, I am in this level because my Master said that I am in, you know, whatever, you know, or I am in, you know Ruchi, or whatever position I am. But nowadays, I didn’t think I am wherever I am, but am I? Really? Is there anybody who can assess me to find out where I actually am?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, well, there’s three things. As I said, we can assess ourselves.
Devotee : But it’s difficult to assess yourself.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Well, yeah, and maybe it is, but if you find it very difficult, then probably you’re in the very low stage [Laughs].
Devotee : Sure.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Secondly, of course, others can help, other devotees. Okay. Equal level or slightly lower, they can help, which is often done. Third, of course, yes, the Guru can take that responsibility also, and maybe ideally, that should be the situation.
Devotee : Ideally, it should be, but it’s not.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Yeah, but if it isn’t, then, of course, you try to find a different Guru.
Devotee : [Laughs] Come on.
HHSBM : Well, that’s, you know, if the Guru is not functioning as the Guru that you want, then you’re free to choose one who could do.
Devotee: But let’s say I see only my Guru once in a year, because I’m living in different parts of the world. How does he know about my advancement in life?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, you can communicate.
Devotee: The Guru also should be prepared to be the example?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, of course, that’s what I am saying. So, if that Guru is not prepared to do that, you’re not satisfied, you should not choose him in the first place. It’s also that. So, you choose the Guru who you can satisfy you to teach you in the way that you expect to be taught. That’s all. If he doesn’t do it, you choose a different person. And in ISKCON its free, because you’ve got all different people to choose from.
Devotee: We can choose a Siksha Guru.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Whatever. Yeah, sure. So, even if the Diksha Guru doesn’t do that, you have freedom to choose so many different Siksha Gurus as well.
2.) I’m just like the first standard person. Why would you like to know on which level ?
Devotee 2: Because Maharaj saying, I don’t know [Not clear].
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : [Laughs]
Devotee 1 : No, no, no. I’m just saying what you think is the advantage of us knowing in which level.
Devotee 2 : You can go to the next level. So if I am in Ruchi.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : If you’re in Class 5, then the next one is to go to Class 6, yeah? Yeah. If you don’t know what level you’re at, then you don’t know where to aim for the next. It’s not practical. Or you say Prema, but that’s so far off for most people that you want a more immediate thing, immediate goal. So, we have to realize where we are at least, you know, to some degree.
Devotee 2: It’s important for me to understand why I am Brown Belt and why I’m not Black Belt. Because for 10, 20 years I’ve been practicing and I’ve not made any advancement. The Master said, no, no, no, you’re doing this wrong. If you correct me, you can become a Black Belt, I can become. But I am still in the level which I have not reached what I want to be. You understand? So, it’s important for me to understand, where I am and how can I progress further. And unless I have a Master who teaches me or assess me from what level I am.
Devotee 1 : You can also come down.
Devotee 2 : Yeah, down is easy, to go down. You know, just push you [Laughs]. You go down, no problem. To go up is difficult, but to go down is easy.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: The problem is, the people that are down don’t even know they’re down [Laughs].
Devotee: Yes. Yes.
3.) We have in our Sampradaya also some saints who are Raganuga. Something like Vamsi Das Babaji or Jagannath Das Babaji. And that is okay to be in this level. But that Srila Prabhupada told us we might be Sadhana Bhakti and we might sometimes in our life we going to this Sadhana Bhakti and this Raganuga Bhakti. That is possible. That is possible we grow from Sadhana Bhakti to Raganuga.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Raganuga is a Sadhana. It’s also Sadhana.
Devotee : It’s also Sadhana..?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : There’s two things there in Sadhana. Raganuga and Vaidhi. So, normally you could choose one or the other as like in Vallabha Sampradaya. They don’t even choose. It’s only Raganuga [Laughs]. And in Gaudiya Sampradaya generally it was Raganuga. They didn’t really choose one or the other. Now in Gaudiya mutt and in ISKCON, then we have, we emphasize Vaidhi. It’s not real Vaidhi because it’s a mixture already. But in any case, whatever we do as we advance, we can always emphasize the Raganuga aspect, if we want to realize Krishna. We could emphasize that more and more. But that’s our choice or through guidance of Guru or whatever, we could do that. Or if we choose just to do what we’re doing, fine, we can also do that [Laughs].
4.) So, I was reading the glorious life of Srila Narottama Das Thakur by Sitala Dasi I think. So, she said in an introduction of her book that at that time they didn’t write the history chronologically as they do today, but it was kind of based on a myth.
Yeah, well even Bhagavatam is not all chronological.
Devotee: Yeah, yeah. But then in the book it follows the life of Srila Narottama Das Thakur, but then like way beyond that. It’s kind of like a contradiction.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Historical narrative?
Devotee : Yeah, historical versus emotion. Yeah, I didn’t remember. I mean, the book was very nice. The book was very, very nice.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: We don’t really have an authority in the book. All I think the sources may be summoned by Nityananda Das or something like that, but we don’t know if it’s bona fide or not [Laughs].
Devotee: Well, so she was saying that she wrote a book 20 years ago. And then she kind of kept it in the closet. She didn’t publish it when she wrote it. But she got sources from very different sources. But then she decided after 20 something years.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: It’s difficult to make historical accounts to some degree. It’s not always… They’re not thinking historically about events in detail. They get in detail like that. So, of course, there is some degree of that in Caitanya Caritamrita where it goes over in Caitanya Bhagavata. If you look later on, like in Bhakti Ratnakara, then Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur said, that was written a few hundred years later. So it’s not too historically accurate [Laughs]. It was his comments. Because he has a story of Narottama and Gopal bhatta and all these different characters there. Srinivasacharya, whatever. But how accurate it is because he was not witness at all to those events which happened a few hundred years previous when he was writing them. So what was his basis [Laughs] for putting those events in there ? Several hundred years later, we don’t know how accurate their interpretations are, so there is that difficulty.
5.) My friend [Not clear] sent me one question about the Shaktas actually. The ultimate question is how to preach them because they have
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Who was that?
Devotee 2 : They are worshipping Shakta.
Devotee 1 : There are some Shakta worshippers in [Not clear].
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Oh really? Durgadevi, Tantra and all that [Laughs].
Devotee 1: So there are some arguments I would like to mention. At the end, I would like to ask you how to preach them. For example, they work from the Devi Bhagavatam.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Yeah, sure.
Devotee 1 : And then there is a story that one devotee wanted to know about the Supreme. Brahma didn’t know. Shiva didn’t know. Vishnu didn’t know. Durga came.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Devotee 1 : And then they say that only Devi Bhagavat is for the Kali Yuga.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Okay [Laughs].
Devotee 1 : Other scriptures are for other realms. These are like weird stories. But how to preach them?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Traditionally, if we accept the scriptures, Puranas are there.
And there are 18 Puranas accepted as the major Puranas. Devi Purana is not one of them [Laughs]. And of those 18 Puranas, we have three divisions. This is mentioned in [not clear]. We have Tamasic, Rajasic, and Sattvic. So the Tamasic deal with Shiva because he is in charge of Tamo guna nd Agni, worship of Agni and Shiva generally. Some pitras or something like that. Six Puranas. And the six Rajo-guna Puranas, they have a prominence of worshipping and praising Brahma. And Sattvic Puranas generally praising Vishnu. So, obviously to give people faith in Shiva, the Shiva Purana or Skanda Purana are going to praise Shiva and say he is the ultimate. He is Bhagavan. He is superior to Vishnu [Laughs]. So, according to the Puranas, there may be contradictory statements.
So the Sattvic Puranas will praise Vishnu. Tamasic Puranas will praise Shiva. And the Rajasic Puranas will praise Brahma. So what do we do? So the rule is, if there is contradiction, then the authority of the Sattvic Puranas is superior to the Rajasic or Tamasic Puranas. So that is the general principle we follow. But Devi Purana is not even among the 18 major Puranas.
So the followers of Shiva, of course, have their own Saiva Siddhanta and their own saints
and whatever like that and their own scriptures etc. Generally, they are not really accepted as Vedic scriptures. We have four Vedas with the Upanishads and the Brahmanas and aranyakas. We have the Smriti Shastras and we have the Puranas and the Mahabharatha, Ramayana. But all those Shiva texts and whatever are not there. And the things like Shakti and Durga are also not included. So that’s the general classification of major Acharyas, even Sankaracharya.
Devotee : It is interesting that there is a classification of different Puranas, but each Purana is for a certain Kaliyuga. That means in some Kaliyuga they don’t worship at all Krishna and Vishnu at all?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Oh, okay, yeah. Veda Vyasa did this because he knew people are in different Gunas. So according to the Guna, easier for the Tamo guna people to worship Shiva and people in passion to worship Brahma etc. So he wrote like that. But Narada Muni came and as recited, and shown in Bhagavatam, he said all this is nonsense, don’t do this anymore. People in Kali Yuga simply get confused by all of this because everyone is worshipping something different. So he says, you just indicate one object of worship for everybody in Kali Yuga, Krishna. So that’s why we get Bhagavatham [Laughs].
6.) Can you give some practical guidance of how to survive Anartha nivritti.
How to survive anartha nivritti [Laughs]? Anartha nivritti is of course, it’s a stage. Bhajana-kriya, anartha-nivritti, nistha, ruci. But it’s actually always happening from the very beginning of Bhakti and even before. As in the case of Ajamila, he wasn’t a devotee but he chanted the name accidentally so he destroyed all those karmas. So that’s accidental [Laughs]. Anartha nivritti of his karmas. So when we begin devotional service, we begin the process of Bhakti which is called Bhajana-kriya and simultaneously that the Anarthas are getting removed. That means karmas, desires, ignorance which is the negative aspects of our existence. Simultaneously we’re developing more attraction to Krishna, that’s the positive thing and that becomes Prema. So we’re getting rid of Anarthas and we’re developing our Bhakti till it becomes Prema.
So how it works is that the more attraction we have for Krishna with unconditional love, the more the Anarthas get removed. Just like if we have a glass of water here. So now it’s full of water. If we have half a glass of water, there’s half air. The more I fill it with water, the less air until it’s completely full, no more air. So you fill yourself with Bhakti, no more Anarthas [Laughs]. So that’s how it works and we’re emphasizing the positive aspect of more Krishna and then less Maya. More attraction to Krishna, less attraction to Maya like that. As we go on. So the, if we follow according to scripture and guidance of devotees and Guru, then this we should go through these stages.
So before Nistha, we’re doing Bhakti and that we call Anisthita Bhakti, not steady. When we get to Nistha, it’s called Steady Bhakti. So what that means is, as we go up to Nistha, we’re gradually destroying these obstructions or Anarthas to the extent that there’s more prominence of Bhakti and less Anarthas, so therefore we can do Bhakti steadily. As we go on, more Anarthas are removed and we get to more prominence of Bhakti and Ruchi and Asakthi until there’s very little left and then very, very little left of Anarthas. Whatever like that.
So Nistha is a stage which is, we can say, healthy for us because there’s a little bit more prominence of the Bhakti over the Anarthas and the Maya. So we can practice Bhakti steadily. Anarthas are still there. But we can practice the Bhakti steadily. Before that, you know, the Bhakti becomes unsteady. Sometimes we practice, sometimes we don’t or whatever because the Anarthas are too strong. But when we get a majority of Bhakti, a little bit more, maybe 55% to 45%, then at least we can do the Bhakti steadily [Laughs]. But as we do it, of course, more Anarthas are getting removed until we get to Ruchi and Asakthi and then to Bhava.
7.) Sometimes I hear, actually, a lot of times, that it’s like they say, it is our duty to speak a lot about Anarthas and Anartha nivritti stage. And then, Bhakti Siddhanta also said that we should introduce some Artha pravritti. How much, what is the balance I mean, that we speak about negative things and about positive things. So many times I hear only about Anarthas.
Yeah [Laughs]. So actually, the Anarthas are like, the Anartha nivritti is a secondary effect of increasing Bhakti. Which means that we actually have to emphasize the positive aspect over the negative aspect. Negative is the result of the positive aspect. So Anartha nivritti takes place by increasing the Bhakti. How do we increase the Bhakti? Obviously, by hearing, chanting, remembering, whatever, all these Angas of Bhakti. So actually, our emphasis should be upon the positive aspects, which will automatically get rid of the negative things.
Of course, we should know, like we recite the Das-aparadhas every day, the ten Aparadhas, we should know what these Anarthas and Aparadhas are to avoid them. So we shouldn’t just dwell on them. The whole process is we’re supposed to become attracted to Krishna. So we become attracted to Krishna by hearing more about Krishna [Laughs] and His name.
8.) A few hours ago I received a letter from a very young devotee from Serbia. He asked me if I could ask him some questions. So, he really likes, loves reading your books, the books that you’re translating, that you’re publishing and everything. First of all, his question is how is it possible that you publish so many books? Do you have some assistants or secretaries for helping you in that regard? Or you’re doing everything by yourself only? That’s question number one. And number two question is do you have also some system for checking for publishing? I think he mentioned that he found a few typos.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Oh, yeah.
Devotee : That was my question. Where do you find all this time? You read so many books.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: [Laughs] I don’t do anything else [Laughs].
Devotee: Yeah, where do you get all this time? And also, how did you get into that? What did attract you?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So anyway, in the modern world due to the advancement in modern demonic science and whatever [Laughs], we also got a few conveniences like computers and whatever like that which makes it a little easier, because you can put the books on the computer, you don’t have to lug books around with you, etc. You can write and revise and do everything. You see, when Prabhupada was translating, he was just looking at a dictaphone and you can’t correct anything. You can’t go back and correct anything even on that. So it’s up to the editors to do everything. And they can’t figure out what something is sometimes so they guess at it even. But with now, we can write and book at and see the mistakes and correct it if there’s a mistake. So it makes it a lot easier in that sense. We can search for things in other scriptures that we need or whatever. They quote other verses. We can find them very easily nowadays. The computers and internet have made things a little bit more easy for us to access books, to translate books and then even edit books or whatever.
I do the main translation and whatever. I have a few editors. One main editor, whatever. It’s a little slow, but it’s going through this. I’ve got like 18 or 20 books piled up waiting to get edited [Laughs] already [Laughs]. Which will come out very quickly now because we did Hari Bhakti Vilasa, which is a big one. And that’s taken a few years actually to do that one. It’s also very complicated, because it’s not straightforward in all cases. Meaning [Not clear] and whatever like that. So that takes a little time, but otherwise editing goes a little quicker than that. So I have editors like that. If people do have find mistakes, fine. They just mail them into our site and they can easily put the corrections in because it goes onto the Kindle book immediately. You can just stick it into the Kindle book immediately and people can access that. If they already got the book, they can access the corrected version or whatever. So that is quite easy to do that. So…
Devotee: You can say also you’ve been doing it for the last 20 years?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, actually.
Devotee: So it’s not just you start yesterday and today you’ve done 60 books.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : [Laughs].
Devotee : It took 20 years to do 100 entries.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: 25 years or so.
Devotee: And when Maharaj travel around the world, he is always on the computer every morning. Inside there I play things at the airport. So…
Devotee : Do you have a process? You know how sometimes the writers like Maya Angelou, for example, she used to walk herself in a room in a hotel and she would write there.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Oh, no, no. Just anywhere [Laughs]. Anywhere, anytime.
Devotee : So we tried using cloud AI to translate [not clear], right? For the first chapter of the series.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Did it work?
Devotee : Well, so… we used, like, first we started with a model like 3.7 and then the new model came out. It did kind of work, you know? Because I tried to compare with the… The original. Yeah, the original. There were some similarities. Well, actually, I’d say differences.
But then I also tried chatGPT. It was different. And then I asked what is the level of knowledge of Sanskrit. It says kind of like a like a medium.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Okay.
Devotee : Because it doesn’t learn languages like humans. It learns kind of very different.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Mechanical [Laughs].
Devotee : Very difficult.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Getting a dictionary.
Devotee: You have to write really prompt, how to translate and how to form the translation. If you don’t write the prompt the way it’s supposed to be.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Okay if you do it right then you get a more accurate translation. Yes and of course they can always improve as well. Yeah and especially the vocabulary. If they can improve their vocabulary by putting in our books [Laughs] and comparing them. They can get a better translation also.
Devotee : Yeah, exactly, it has to be.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So somebody was trying to make a program, a devotee actually, to a translation program for commentaries and whatever that. So they wanted all my translations. So they could feed that into the thing. And then based on Sanskrit and my translations, they come up with the proper words for different things. Otherwise they end up with real strange combinations sometimes.
Devotee : So how it works is basically it’s guessing. It goes through the words. So it looks kind of like this because they were doing like biology of AI. You can say that. So it goes and searches the words and then it combines them together. I’m working on this program that you can, for example, select a verse from Bhagavad Gita. And then click a certain button and then you can connect the similar verses or the other verses how they’re connected to that verse.
Devotee : I actually made a list of the words, how to translate English into Sanskrit.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Okay if you can feed that back into …
Devotee : And then he used that list and some rules and the last two times it seems only one mistake was there.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Okay [Laughs].
Devotee : But I’m wondering if that would be possible to make rules for translating Sanskrit to English Or to start from [Not clear].
Devotee : Using AI.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Anything’s possible [Laughs]. It may not be perfect, that’s all.
Devotee: Yeah, because it always says it makes mistakes.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : But even I make mistakes [Laughs]. It’s not a problem either. And I look at the translations. Sometimes they make mistakes. I just look at Bengali translations. They also make mistakes sometimes.
Devotee : I think in 100 years we will have AI Gurus also.
9.) I was thinking you were talking about the guru and the relationship….I’m trying to form the question. I don’t I mean; I don’t write my guru that often. But I do feel really connected to him. I don’t know. I think it’s all personal.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, People expect different things or need different things.
So they can relate differently. That’s allowed. Well, Lord Caitanya had His guru. He never saw him again, that was Diksha guru [Laughs].
Devotee: But then I was when
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Same with Nithyananda.
Devotee : I was told.. you know Prabhupada.. how many times did he see his guru? Like couple of thousands of times ?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: No, Prabhupada only saw Bhakti Siddhanta like four times or something.
Devotee: Yeah, four times. And he told me to do this and that.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So it doesn’t always depend upon how many times you meet the guru or whatever. It depends on what you absorb from his instructions, basically. And how you get inspired by him. So Prabhupada got inspired [Laughs] from his first meeting. And that’s what impelled him to go to America and start preaching there. That’s how he established the movement.
Devotee: Yeah, well, yeah. So back on the Raganuga. So every morning I worship my Salagrama Shilas, you know. And I also feel like really connected to them. And I talk to them. I mean sometimes it’s funny.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : [Laughs]
Devotee : Yeah, but I put on I mean, I also follow the because I used to be Pujari. So I follow the rules. Pretty much the same establishments and temples. But I mean, sometimes they deviate from the rules.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Yeah, yeah. Especially with personal deities there’s not a problem. With temples, of course, you’re kind of restricted. But with personal deities, you can spontaneously [Laughs] interact with your deities.
Devotee: Right, right. Yeah, I feel like really, really connected to them. I mean, they’re Salagram Silas, but I feel like [Not clear] them.
10.) I was listening to one Christian lecture. When you come back to God and God asks you, okay, you come. But who is bringing with you? But your guys are bring with you. That is God’s interest. Now you come back. How many of you are bring with you?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : [Laughs]
Devotee : Yes, it’s so good point.
11.) So I was reading Caitanya Bhagavatam. So I learned that Caitanya was Nimai, was mysterious when he was a child. But then I read this when he was asking his father who had passed away and then he was asking for a garland to go worship Ganga and she didn’t have a garland at that time. He broke everything around the house. He made this whole tantrum. I was like, oh my god [Laughs]. He is so spoiled [Laughs].
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: But this is like Krishna.
Devotee: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was kind of surprised.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : Kicking the yoghurt pot.
Devotee : I was kind of surprised. I was actually really surprised. I was like, oh my god, he broke all the things in the house. Yeah, he made all this drama and then actually he went back to get a gold from another and so she could buy new things.
12.) I want to ask Maharaj, when you went to Chennai first time and how the connection with Chennai started or how did it start?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj : How did it start? First time I went; I remember [Laughs] first time I went. I used to go preaching there I suppose and then eventually I just stayed there because there was nobody else there. Not many doing it people there. So I just stayed there because there was not so many people there. That’s how I ended up there.
Devotee: You are not right now temple president right? Who is GBC? You are?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: I am, for south India.
Devotees : HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj Ki Jai !!! Srila Prabhupada Ki Jai !!!