Srimad Bhagavatam – 5.4.5 | HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj | ISKCON Auckland | 25 March 2025
nama om vishnu-padaya krishna-preshthaya bhu-tale
srimate bhaktivedanta-svamin iti namine
namas te sarasvate deve gaura-vani-pracharine
nirvishesha-shunyavadi-pashchatya-desha-tarine
sri-krishna-chaitanya
prabhu nityananda
sri-adwaita gadadhara
shrivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrinda
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare,
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
We are reading from Srila Prabhupada Lilamrita, from ‘Unlimited Opportunity, Limited Time’ Los Angeles, June 23rd, 1969.
After leaving New Vrindavan, Srila Prabhupada visited a centre in Los Angeles where he installed deities of Radha and Krishna. Although, as he had told the disciples in London, the primary actor was Sankirtan, deity worship was also necessary.
In his writings, Srila Prabhupada discussed the need for deity worship, and he gradually introduced higher and higher standards of deity worship in each of his ISKCON centers. Los Angeles, having become the model ISKCON centre, was a natural place for him to introduce the more opulent and demanding standards of worshipping Radha and Krishna. While more than a hundred devotees and guests sat in a spacious hall, Prabhupada bathed and dressed the little forms of Radha and Krishna, then placed them on the altar.
He was inviting Radha and Krishna to descend to give the disciples opportunity to serve them. He was offering his disciples Radha and Krishna with faith that the disciples would not neglect them. If the devotees somehow lost their enthusiasm, Prabhupada explained in his lecture, then the worship would become like idol worship. If there is no life, then it is idol worship. Where there is life, healing, then you think, where is Krishna? Here is Krishna. Oh, I have to serve him. I have to dress him. I have to serve Radharani. She is here. Oh, I just have to do it very nicely. And as far as possible, decorate her to the best capacity. If you think like this, then you are Krishna conscious.
But if you think that it is a brass-made doll or idol, then Krishna will reciprocate with you accordingly. If you think that this is a brass-made idol, then it will remain brass-made idol to you forever. But if you elevate yourself to a higher platform of Krishna consciousness, then Krishna, this very Krishna, will talk with you. This Krishna will talk with you.
Hare Krishna !!
Om namo bhagavate Vasudevaya
Om namo bhagavate Vasudevaya
Om namo bhagavate Vasudevaya !!
nama om vishnu-padaya krishna-preshthaya bhu-tale
srimate bhaktivedanta-svamin iti namine
namas te sarasvate deve gaura-vani-pracharine
nirvishesha-shunyavadi-pashchatya-desha-tarine
sri-krishna-chaitanya
prabhu nityananda
sri-adwaita gadadhara
shrivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrinda
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare,
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
Reading from Srimad-Bhagavatham Canto-5 Chapter 4, Text 5.
This is not in verse form, so you can’t chant it in the normal way.
SB – 5.4.5:
viditānurāgam āpaura-prakṛti jana-pado rājā nābhir ātmajaṁ samaya-setu-rakṣāyām abhiṣicya brāhmaṇeṣūpanidhāya saha merudevyā viśālāyāṁ prasanna-nipuṇena tapasā samādhi-yogena nara-nārāyaṇākhyaṁ bhagavantaṁ vāsudevam upāsīnaḥ kālena tan-mahimānam avāpa.
Translation
King Nābhi understood that his son, Ṛṣabhadeva, was very popular among the citizens and among government officers and ministers. Understanding the popularity of his son, Mahārāja Nābhi enthroned Him as the emperor of the world to give protection to the general populace in terms of the Vedic religious system. To do this, he entrusted Him into the hands of learned brāhmaṇas, who would guide Him in administrating the government. Then Mahārāja Nābhi and his wife, Merudevī, went to Badarikāśrama in the Himālaya Mountains, where the King engaged Himself very expertly in austerities and penances with great jubilation. In full samādhi he worshiped the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Nara-Nārāyaṇa, who is Kṛṣṇa in His plenary expansion. By doing so, in course of time Mahārāja Nābhi was elevated to the spiritual world known as Vaikuṇṭha.
Purport
When Mahārāja Nābhi saw that his son Ṛṣabhadeva was popular with the general populace and the governmental servants, he chose to install Him on the imperial throne. In addition, he wanted to entrust his son into the hands of the learned brāhmaṇas. This means that a monarch was supposed to govern strictly according to Vedic principles under the guidance of learned brāhmaṇas, who could advise Him according to the standard Vedic scriptures like Manu-smṛti and similar śāstras. It is the duty of the king to rule the citizens according to Vedic principles. According to Vedic principles, society is divided into four categories — brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. After dividing society in this way, it is the king’s duty to see that everyone executes Vedic principles according to his caste. A brāhmaṇa must perform the duty of a brāhmaṇa without cheating the public. It is not that one attains the name of a brāhmaṇa without the qualifications. It is the king’s duty to see that everyone engages in his occupational duty according to Vedic principles. In addition, retirement at the end of life is compulsory. Mahārāja Nābhi, although still a king, retired from family life and went with his wife to a place called Badarikāśrama in the Himālayas, where the Deity Nara-Nārāyaṇa is worshiped. The words prasanna-nipuṇena tapasā indicate that the King accepted all kinds of austerity very expertly and jubilantly. He did not at all mind leaving his comfortable life at home, although he was the emperor. Despite undergoing severe austerities and penances, he felt very pleased at Badarikāśrama, and he did everything there expertly. In this way, being fully absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness (samādhi-yoga), always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, Vāsudeva, Mahārāja Nābhi attained success at the end of his life and was promoted to the spiritual world, Vaikuṇṭhaloka.
This is the way of Vedic life. One must stop the process of repeated birth and death and return home, back to Godhead. The words tan-mahimānam avāpa are significant in this regard. Śrīla Śrīdhara Svāmī says that mahimā means liberation in this life. We should act in such a way in this life that after giving up this body, we will become liberated from the bondage of repeated birth and death. This is called jīvan-mukti. Śrīla Vīrarāghava Ācārya states that in the Chāndogya Upaniṣad there are eight symptoms of a jīvan-mukta, a person who is already liberated even when living in this body. The first symptom of one so liberated is that he is freed from all sinful activity (apahata-pāpa). As long as one is under the clutches of māyā in the material energy, one has to engage in sinful activity. Bhagavad-gītā describes such people as duṣkṛtinaḥ, which indicates that they are always engaged in sinful activity. One who is liberated in this life does not commit any sinful activities. Sinful activity involves illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. Another symptom of a liberated person is vijara, which indicates that he is not subjected to the miseries of old age. Another symptom is vimṛtyu. A liberated person prepares himself in such a way that he does not take on any more material bodies, which are destined to die. In other words, he does not fall down again to repeat birth and death. Another symptom is viśoka, which indicates that he is callous to material distress and happiness. Another is vijighatsa, which indicates that he no longer desires material enjoyment. Another symptom is apipātā, which means that he has no desire other than to engage in the devotional service of Kṛṣṇa, his dearmost pursuable Lord. A further symptom is satya-kāma, which indicates that all his desires are directed to the Supreme Truth, Kṛṣṇa. He does not want anything else. He is satya-saṅkalpa. Whatever he desires is fulfilled by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. First of all, he does not desire anything for his material benefit, and secondly if he desires anything at all, he simply desires to serve the Supreme Lord. That desire is fulfilled by the Lord’s grace. That is called satya-saṅkalpa. Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī points out that the word mahimā means returning to the spiritual world, back home, back to Vaikuṇṭha. Śrī Śukadeva says that the word mahimā means that the devotee attains the qualities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called sadharma, or “the same quality.” Just as Kṛṣṇa is never born and never dies, His devotees who return to Godhead never die and never take birth within the material world.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj:
This verse describes how King Nābhi conducted himself as an ideal king. And one of the principles of the king is, he should not be attached to his position and power and wealth. And King Nābhi retired and became a vanaprastha and gave up his whole kingdom. The only condition was that, the kingdom should be ruled by a qualified person. And fortunately, he had a son, Rsabhadeva, who was fully qualified to rule. Of course, he was more than qualified to rule. He was also qualified as a devotee. But in any case, he was qualified to rule and therefore, very confidently, Nābhi gave his kingdom to Rsabhadeva to rule. And what did he do? He went to the Himalayas. He worshipped the Lord. He performed austerities. And finally, he attained the spiritual world. So this is the conduct, ideal conduct of a king who is able to renounce his position and the power and wealth in favor of spiritual life.
Of course, it is not only an example for the king. It’s an example for everyone. Everyone should follow this principle. Prabhupada here mentions about the varnashram system and the king is responsible for making sure that all the different varnas follow the rules set up by scripture. So each varna is different. It’s a different mixture of gunas. And there’s a different set of rules for each varna. So the king is responsible to see that each group follows those particular orders. Now, the result of that is that, they begin to control their senses to the degree that their guna and varna allow. And by doing that, gradually, they progress to more control of the senses, and more control of the senses. So people at the bottom, those in Tamoguna, gradually rise up to Rajoguna. And from Rajoguna, they progress to Sattvaguna. So in this way, that system is not restrictive.
Modern people, they often condemn the system of varnas, because it restricts people and it classifies them into groups, and you can’t get out of your group. And that criticism, to some extent, is true, not because of the principle of dividing people into different groups for occupation, etc., but because the system becomes corrupted, and the people are limited and restricted within each group to such an extent that they don’t even progress [Laughs]. Idea is progression. The result of this restriction is, they don’t progress. And of course, there is no king to enforce the rules, so they don’t follow rules by which they could progress. There’s some confusion about what to do, so they don’t know, and there’s no king there to enforce the rules. The rules are enforced, then we have a system by which they could advance. So then they’re not restricted anymore in that sense.
Now, the only problem probably is that generally, the progress through following these rules is slow. So therefore, you don’t think, well, I’m a sudra today. Next year, I’m going to be a vaisya. Next year, I’m going to be a kshatriya. And finally, after four years, I’ll be a brahmana by following the rules. That doesn’t usually work [Laughs]. So usually, you may send 20 lives as a sudra, 20 lives as a kshatriya, 20 lives as a kshatriya, then finally you become a brahmana. So after 100 lifetimes, now you get to be a brahmana [Laughs]. And so it’s a very slow progression. That, of course, is also realistic, because we do know that people take a long time to change. But at least the system is there to guarantee you’re going to get another birth, which is a little higher than you were previously, and the next birth is a little higher, a little higher.
So it’s a gradual progression, not that you go all at once. So, that is with the understanding that the nature of the Jiva, the nature of the human being, is that it takes us a long time to change. We don’t like to change. We like where we are, and we get attached to that. We don’t want to change. So it’s a gradual system. In any case, the system is not there to restrict people and keep the majority at the bottom and the privileged at the top. It’s a system by which gradually everybody gets raised up, taking into account the nature of the gunas, the nature of the human being, to progress slowly. So that’s the optimistic view of the varna ashram system. That’s its purpose.
Of course, we also see that Bhagavatam, and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, don’t put too much emphasis upon that system. In fact, Lord Chaitanya often rejects the system [Laughs]. Not because it’s completely useless, but because there’s something higher and more important for us to do, and that is bhakti. So if we put too much emphasis on the system, then the bhakti is going to decrease and get polluted and whatever. So therefore, better to concentrate on the bhakti more than anything else, and everything else can support bhakti. So that’s the basic principle, and for that reason, Lord Chaitanya often criticizes the system.
So why? Because people are doing the opposite, and therefore he criticizes. They get stuck into the varna ashram system, and ultimately, we can say, they get stuck in such a way that nobody progresses [Laughs], and therefore the system fails. So there is progress through the gunas by varna ashram system. That’s its good quality, and if it’s done properly, that should happen. However, once we get to the top and we become a brahmana, it does not automatically mean we progress to bhakti [Laughs]. It is more likely we’ll progress to jnana. Okay, jnana is good because you can get liberation from the material world and the spiritual, so therefore liberation is beyond the material world, beyond the gunas. It’s better than being in the gunas, but by getting stuck, attached to jnana, the human being often rejects bhakti completely, and then he loses his chance of going beyond liberation to get vaikuntha. So that’s another problem. Then we get stuck in jnana and go for liberation, and then we have no regard for doing anything else or getting higher, going to bhakti, getting to the spiritual world. So that’s a little bit of a problem also. So, and it’s another reason why Lord Chaitanya doesn’t favor emphasizing this system too much, because even if you perfect the system and become brahmana, you may become a jnani and go for liberation instead of becoming a devotee and going to Krishna [Laughs]. So therefore we cannot put too much emphasis upon that system, only as a support.
So a person who practices that system can also take the devotion. It is possible. And great kings like King Nābhi and Rsabhadeva, they were kings, kshatriyas, implementing the system, getting advice from brahmanas, etc. So they were also following varna ashram system, but simultaneously they were also devotees. So if we have a king who is implementing varna ashram, but is also a devotee, then the chances of progressing in the system and also taking to bhakti are much, much greater. So this is the ideal system, to have a system set up by a king who is a devotee. Yes, people who don’t really want to do bhakti, we engage them in the system, but there’s always opportunity for bhakti, because the king is a devotee also. So there are opportunities for everybody to do bhakti, even if it is incidental or a ajnatha sukriti or whatever. So this is a much better system, not just varna ashram, but varna ashram system with bhakti in there somewhere. So this is what we call Daivi varna ashram. It is a system where it is related to bhakti.
At the same time, we can say, well, okay, we’re doing varna ashram system, we’re doing bhakti, but the whole thing is all bhakti. Why do we have to make a distinction at all? So the distinction is made, because bhakti actually is completely independent and does not depend on that system. And even if you don’t do the system, you still get prema and go to the spiritual world [Laughs]. So we should never think that I do my bhakti, but I have to do varna ashram system, because if I don’t do it, I can’t get prema. It’s a misconception. It’s aparadha [Laughs]. Bhakti is independent. Why? Because bhakti is directly part of Krishna himself. It is his svaroop shakti. It’s independent, whereas varna ashram system and jnana are within the 3 gunas, and they depend on bhakti. So therefore, we can never make that mistake and somehow think that bhakti must be related to varna ashram, otherwise it’s a failure.
So we all have examples of that. We have examples of people who completely renounce that system. And who’s a good example? Rishabhadev. He was king. He was practicing varna ashram, and he just gave up the whole system. I don’t want to do the system anymore. But he had no dependence on that system, but he attained the Supreme Lord. And of course, we have people who was in the system before as a king. We have people who are not within that system at all. Those people not born within the varna ashram system, Mlecchas and yavanas and whatever. And they take to bhakti. They can also get the highest position in the spiritual world. And one or the other, there’s no distinction. Oh, you were Mleccha in the material world. Now you’re in the spiritual world. So you’re not as good as the person who was a brahmana [Laughs] who went to the spiritual world. No.
So without even any contact with the system, if you take to bhakti, you get the spiritual world highest position. It doesn’t depend on the system at all. And of course, the ideal example is Haridas Thakur. [laughs] He was not born in the system, did not practice the system at all. Just chanted the holy name. Didn’t even do deity worship. Just chanted the holy name, and he got the highest position. So, in order to make it clear that bhakti doesn’t depend on anything else, therefore, Lord Chaitanya often rejects it, says, no, this is inferior system or whatever. Because it is also part of the Vedas and part of scripture, and of course, Krishna says, I make the system, we cannot throw it out. We cannot condemn it, ultimately. It is a system created by the Lord, so it’s there for people who are qualified for that system.
Not qualified for the system, fine, don’t do it. So, anyone doing devotional service also needs qualification. But the qualification is not Varnashrama. And thus, the Mlecchas and Yavanas and Haridas Thakur can do it. They’re not qualified with Varnashrama, but they can do it anyway. If you’re in the Varnashrama system, you also may be qualified. You may not be qualified for bhakti. So, the deciding factor, the deciding qualification for bhakti is quite different from the deciding factor for other systems mentioned in the Vedas. And that is, qualification for bhakti is simply faith in the bhakti scriptures. Faith in the conclusion of Bhagavad Gita, without regard for where you came from, whatever. You have that implicit faith, fine, then you do bhakti, and then you can get to the spiritual world.
So, of course, we have other types of faith in Bhagavad Gita. Krishna mentions faith in the mode of Tamas and Rajas and Sattva, etc. You can have all sorts of different faiths. But these are faiths ultimately in material systems, either authorized by the Vedas or not authorized by the Vedas. So, Tamasic and Rajasic tend to, even if they do accept the Vedas, they distort it so much that it’s no longer the Vedas anymore. So, if you are sattvic faith, okay, then you can follow the Vedas nicely. But where is that faith going to come from? It also comes from the material world. If you have sattva guna, you will develop faith in the scriptures. So, you have to get to sattva guna to get the faith, to follow the Vedas [laughs]. So, you’re dependent on gunas.
Faith in bhakti does not depend on the gunas. So, you can be in Tamo guna and develop faith in Bhagavad Gita. So, it’s quite different. And you could be in Tamo guna, not in the Varnashrama system. You could be a sudra in the varnashram system. You could be a Mleccha outside the varnashram system. You could be in Tamo guna, Rajasic, etc. You could develop faith. So, bhakti operates quite differently. The faith of other processes are in the gunas of material nature… Sattva, Tamas and Rajas. The faith in bhakti is nirguna, not in the gunas at all, beyond material world.
So, how does that faith arise? It arises from someone who is nirguna [Laughs]. And who is nirguna? The devotees. The devotees practice bhakti. Bhakti is nirguna. They can give faith to people. Nirguna faith. So, mercy of devotees is the cause of faith in bhakti, which is the cause of getting to spiritual world. So, this system is quite independent of any other system, including Varnashrama system, whatever. And thus, we can practice these systems because they are approved by the Lord. At the same time, it’s not necessary, we have to do it, otherwise, we’re a failure. So, and for this reason, bhakti is a process recommended by Krishna. It’s the easiest system. It’s the quickest system and it gives a better result. It gives prema. And none of these other systems, karma yoga, jñāna yoga, asthanga yoga, give prema they do not. Only bhakti does that. So, superior system.
For those people who don’t have faith in bhakti, fine. They can do karma yoga, or jñāna yoga, or asthanga yoga. However, if they completely reject bhakti, they cannot really get a result from these systems also. So, these systems also depend on bhakti, but a little bit of bhakti only. So, this also shows the greatness of bhakti. All these systems created by the Lord, you need the mercy of the Lord. If you reject the Lord and say it’s all foolish, then you’re actually not really following the Varnashrama system, or jñāna, or yoga. Because it all depends ultimately on the Supreme Lord. You can also…you must respect the Lord, at least, in the system. Give a little worship. But, because the system is aimed at different goals, you get different goals, and you don’t get prema.
So, therefore, with this understanding that bhakti is very special, independent of everything, and that in bhakti itself, nama-sankirtan is the major process, then, with that in mind, we practice bhakti, and we can do other things as well, from Varnashrama, etc., and we can get our success, as long as we don’t contaminate the principles of bhakti.
Okay. Any questions there?
Q & A
1) Hare Krishna Maharaj. Thank you for the wonderful class. Maharaj, how can we go from jñāna to bhakti? How can we go from jnana to bhakti?
Well, as I said, the cause of bhakti is faith. So, whether you’re doing karma yoga, jñāna yoga, or astanga yoga, you need the faith. But where do you get the faith from? Because already you have faith in something else [Laughs]. If you’re doing jñāna yoga, you have faith in jñāna yoga, you have faith in the goal of mukti or sayujya, whatever. So, how are you going to get faith in bhakti? So, it is problematic in that sense. You get stuck in a certain system. And then you get liberation. If you get liberation, there’s no association at all.
So, to get faith in bhakti and start the process of bhakti, if you’re a jñāni, it all depends on mercy of a devotee, as with karma yoga or no yoga at all [Laughs]. It depends on mercy of devotees. So, unfortunately, if you’re a jñāni and you get the wrong association, you may also become an aparadhi. Because then you may think, oh, liberation means impersonal, no quality, form, etc. Krishna has qualities and form. Oh, Krishna is illusory. Maya is useless. Form is awful. We don’t want that, reject Krishna [Laughs] then you become an offender. So, therefore, if you have that attitude as a jñāni, it’s going to be very difficult to develop faith, even if you get association of devotees [Laughs].
If you’re a jnani who believes in liberation, but you don’t reject the Lord, you don’t offend the Lord, okay then it’s more possible. So, if you meet a devotee, you’re respectful. And then gradually, by association, more association, then you could change and develop. So, a nice example of that is, of course, in Lord Chaitanya’s time, not before that, we have Madhvacharya. So, if we look, many of his followers who became great devotees and scholars and they wrote works, they were Mayavadis previously. And they got converted by the mercy of Madhvacharya.
So, a big example in Bhagavatam, however, is Sukadeva. He was an atmarama, which means an impersonalist. Realized atma. Very content. So content that he said, I don’t want to get born. They wouldn’t come out of his mother’s womb for about 14 years. He got stuck in there. I don’t want to come out. Look at the material fall of maya. This world is maya. I will stay in my brahman state. Vasudeva was very worried, of course. He went to visit Krishna in Dwaraka. And he talked to Krishna. He said, you have to come here. Help me solve this problem. So, Krishna came from Dwaraka to his ashrama and then met the wife and this child sitting in the womb. He wouldn’t come out. So, Krishna began speaking to this child. You have to come out. I don’t want to come out. It’s maya. So, Krishna says, I’ll make you a promise. My promises never go in vain. And if I give the promise, will you come out? So, he said, okay. So, the promise I make you is when you come out, you will never fall into maya. So, okay. I’ll come out because you made the promise. I won’t fall into maya. So, then Sukadeva came out of the womb. And then he looked around and saw his father. Oh, this little maya. I’m not going to get attached to it. And he walked out of the house. Completely detached from the material world because that was the promise that was given. Completely detached.
So, of course, his father was calling after him it’s described in First Canto, Bhagavatam. And he didn’t listen. He kept walking away, etc. So, what to do? He was a jnani, completely absorbed in Brahman. Didn’t even want to be attached to his father, who was Vyasadeva, the incarnation of the Lord. So, Vyasadeva, I have to educate him properly. So, he devised a little plan. And through meditation, he understood that Sukadeva had walked away and he was sitting under a tree in the forest, meditating Samadhi on the Atma, Brahman. So, then he sent his disciples there, told them what to do. So, the disciples followed the instructions of Vyasadeva they found the tree and there was Sukadeva Goswami sitting in Samadhi. So, then they followed the instructions of Vedavyasa. What did they do? They began reciting Bhagavatam.
And when Sukadeva heard the Bhagavatam, he wanted to hear more and more. So, he came out of his trance. And he began listening to Bhagavatam. I have to hear all this. So, then the disciples took him back to the ashram of Vedavyasa. And he began to hear Bhagavatam and relish it. And then he began to become interested in Krishna. And then he became a great devotee. So, through hearing process, through Vyasadeva and his disciples, he changed from jnani to devotee and great devotee of that. Very great devotee. So, it is possible for a jnani to change if he has devotee association. So, that’s the possibility. Many of these people who were practicing jnani or austerities, etc. may become devotees by mercy of devotees.
But if they were influenced by that jnana a lot, their bhakti may also get affected. So, as a result, though they become purified and go to the spiritual world, they may end up with Santa-rasa. Because of that influence of that jnana. Because when they see the Lord, then, oh, this is very wonderful Brahman, it is like Brahman [Laughs]. So, they associate Supreme Lord in this form with Brahman also. Because of that previous practice. That influence may be there in their later development also. In the case of Sukadeva, it was not there at all. Because he heard Bhagavatam and became attracted completely to Krishna.
2) How to measure our faith?
Well, of course, in Nectar of Devotion there, at the beginning, Rupa Goswami gives a category of faith. It’s not actually a measurement, but we can, I guess, judge ourselves by that [Laughs]. So, there is Komala Shraddha and there is Kanishtha. There is Madhyama Shraddha and there is Uttama Shraddha, Bhakti with this.
Of course, this is after you start the Bhakti, the faith. So, the Kanishtha faith is called Komala, which means weak or very tender. So, we have a conviction in Bhakti scriptures, existence of Supreme Lord, etc., but kind of weak [Laughs]. Because we still have many material attachments, many material ideas, etc. But we do have a little bit of conviction – weak. The symptom would be that we have a weak faith and we’re practicing, but if we meet people who argue with us, don’t worship Krishna, don’t do Bhakti, do Varnashrama, do Karma Yoga, do Jñāna Yoga, do Ashtanga Yoga, and they give all sorts of reasons. Then you begin to think, well, maybe I made a mistake after all [Laughs]. So, the faith tends to be wavery and you may stop the Bhakti for some time. So, that is weak faith. We’re not quite consistent in the Bhakti.
Madhyama faith is, we have a little knowledge of scripture and that knowledge is enough that it increases our convictions. So, we have a little faith. We read scripture. Okay, it sounds nice. Yeah, this is very good. And we get a little more faith. Our faith becomes stronger. So, even if people argue with us and try to defeat us or whatever, we don’t really, but we continue our Bhakti, though we cannot also answer the arguments they give. At least we don’t deviate. So, that’s called the Madhyama.
The Uttama is a person who has thoroughly studied and understood the conclusions of scripture and can logically present arguments also. And so, if people argue with him, of course, he’s not defeated in any way. And he can also convince other people.
And his faith always remains very, very strong. So, that person, due to his depth of knowledge and his devotion, is called the Uttama. And so, he’s a very good preacher. So, these are kind of three types of faith by which we could measure a person.
If a person has no faith, we say you cannot preach to the faithless. So, how do we give mercy to a faithless person [Laughs]? We cannot preach and give faith. So, we cannot give that type of association. Nevertheless, we’re said we have to deliver everybody. So, how do we elevate people to have faith so we can even preach to them? So, the answer is you cannot preach, because it’s offense to preach to the faithless. So, then the only way what you can do is associate without preaching [Laughs]. Which may be difficult, because they don’t have any faith and you try to associate, they’ll run away. So, all you can do is cleverly make arrangements by which somehow they get some contact with Bhakti even if they don’t like it. [Laughs]. So, they can get prasadam, they can hear the name, they can see a picture of Krishna or see Jagannath Ratha yatra or whatever. So, even that simple contact with Bhakti without any preaching is good for them. And they get enough exposure to that, then they can get faith. And they have a little conviction, then we can preach to them. Again, it’s mercy. So the faith arises by mercy itself. Once we get the faith and of course we get mercy of devotees, we get knowledge and then we can enhance.
3) So, we generally say uttering the Lord’s name once will clear all the past sins and all the future sins that is going to commit. So, if that’s the case, if we take any layman, so in India especially, everyone would have at least uttered the lord’s name once by any way, like naming someone or… So, technically, all the sins should have been washed away and all the future sins should have been washed away. So, Vasana, will they still exist or will they come? Would they still exist?
So, this is the statement in regard to Ajamila. Karma has got destroyed in the past, present and future. It is not mentioned there about Vasanas and other things. It doesn’t mention the Karmas or doesn’t mention Ahankara also. So, these are other things that have to be removed to get liberation. However, if you continue to chant, you could remove your Vasanas and your Ahankara also, maybe a little slower, but at least remove the Karmas would be more immediate. But even there, there is a condition. Not everybody is going to remove all their Karmas by chanting once.
Ajamila was a little special because of no aparadhas at all. In previous lifetimes or this lifetime. He was sinful, but he wasn’t an aparad. He didn’t commit nama-aparad. So, therefore, chanting once, he destroyed all of his Karmas. If he had aparads, like, you know, thinking Krishna’s got a material body or whatever, attacking devotees or whatever, then he wouldn’t get such immediate destruction of all Karmas, but some destruction of the gradually to the gradual destruction of all Karmas, in that case.
4) Hare Krishna Maharaj. I was just wondering, when someone has faith, not faith, but someone is young, it’s, you see a lot of people who are young, they have young knowledge, they get a lot more gratification, it’s like this. So, and you see, people with faith or whatever, they don’t get so much attention. So how, how does one want to, how do we want to attain or pay attention or much appreciation for faith? I don’t know.
So, why would you do that? It’s like the distinction between getting faith is devotees that buy a lot of knowledge, but they don’t have much faith. So what’s better? Is it better to have faith? So for a devotee, having a right amount of knowledge, excessive knowledge, is that favourable or faith is favourable ?
Oh, well, in the explanation I gave previously, of course, this knowledge means not jñāna, knowledge of Vedanta Sutra, it means knowledge of Bhakti scriptures [Laughs]. So there’s a causal relationship between the knowledge and the development of faith. So we know more about Bhagavad Gita, Bhagavatam, we hear the stories of Krishna’s pastimes, etc. More knowledge, our faith increases. We may have initial faith, but still we don’t quite know who Krishna is, we don’t believe in God or whatever.
We don’t know too much about Krishna. Okay, I’ll accept the form of God, but exactly what form of God, we’re not quite sure [Laughs] like that. If we get more knowledge, and we get more idea about everything, how the Lord acts, then we develop more faith. So that’s one of the purposes of scripture, to deepen our faith, because it will present knowledge which makes sense to us. And answers our questions.
We start out with a lot of doubts. Why is it like this? Why do we suffer? Why doesn’t God listen to me? Why doesn’t He hear me [Laughs]? Why doesn’t He respond? There are so many different questions like that. So we begin reading the scripture, then we understand how God acts, how the Supreme Lord is acting, how Krishna is responding or not responding, why He may not respond, etc. That increases our faith. We get knowledge about different things. Of course, it’s not just like an intellectual knowledge. It must be accompanied by the practice of bhakti itself, which is like hearing and chanting, remembering so many different processes, etc. And attitude, a favourable attitude towards the Lord. But actually, getting this knowledge is also part of bhakti itself. To read the sravanam. Sravanam means to hear the conclusions of scripture. So we hear that with devotion. That is a type of bhakti also.
5) Hare Krsna Maharaj, Maharaj, when we circumambulate Shrimati Tulsadevi, it said that all the sins that one may have committed are destroyed at every step, even the sin of killing a Brahmin. So, are you able to explain a bit more about that? Because we see that even after that, the devotees, or sometimes they get sick, or they might have some other reaction, which can be seen as being a reaction from their karmic activities in the past. So, which sins are destroyed, really, when one circumambulates Shrimati Tulsadevi?
[Laughs] It says that whatever sins you committed are destroyed, even the sin of killing a Brahmin. So all your sins get destroyed. But we can say that about any type of bhakti, like Ajamila chants name, all sins, past, present, future, destroyed, even the sin of killing a Brahmin or whatever.
So, all types of bhakti have that power, because they’re infused with shakti of the Lord Himself. It’s not like Christ, if there’s an atonement in the material world, which is part of karma yoga, they just modify your karmas or whatever. This has the shakti of the Lord Himself.
So it is possible, but, as I said, the conditions, you shouldn’t have any aparadhs, this and that, whatever, if you have aparadhs, there’ll be a slower process of getting rid of your, all of your sins, etc.
Okay? Hare Krishna.
Devotees: HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj ki jai