Srimad Bhagavatam – 3.25.13| HH Banu Swami Maharaj| ISKCON Chennai | Feb 24, 2026
“Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya”
“Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya”
“ Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya”
nama om vishnu-padaya krishna-preshthaya bhu-tale
srimate Bhaktivedanta-svamin iti namine
namas te sarasvate deve gaura-vani-pracharine
nirvishesha-shunyavadi-pashchatya-desha-tarine
śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaitha gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
Reading from Srimad Bhagavatham, Canto 3 chapter 25 “The glories of devotional service” Verse 13
SB_3.25.13
Śrī-bhagavān uvāca
yoga ādhyātmikaḥ puṁsāṁ
mato niḥśreyasāya me
atyantoparatir yatra
duḥkhasya ca sukhasya ca
Synonyms:
Śrī–bhagavān uvāca — the personality of godhead said; yogaḥ — the yoga system; ādhyātmikaḥ — relating to the soul; puṁsām — of living entities; mataḥ — is approved; niḥśreyasāya — for the ultimate benefit; me — by me; atyanta — complete; uparatiḥ — detachment; yatra — where; duḥkhasya — from distress; ca — and; sukhasya — from happiness; ca — and.
Translation
The personality of godhead answered: the yoga system which relates to the Lord and the individual soul, which is meant for the ultimate benefit of the living entity, and which causes detachment from all happiness and distress in the material world, is the highest yoga system.
Purport
In the material world, everyone is trying to get some material happiness, but as soon as we get some material happiness, there is also material distress. In the material world one cannot have unadulterated happiness. Any kind of happiness one has is contaminated by distress also. For example, if we want to drink milk then we have to bother to maintain a cow and keep her fit to supply milk. Drinking milk is very nice; it is also pleasure. But for the sake of drinking milk one has to accept so much trouble. The yoga system, as here stated by the Lord, is meant to end all material happiness and material distress. The best yoga, as taught in bhagavad-gītā by kṛṣṇa, is bhakti-yoga. It is also mentioned in the gītā that one should try to be tolerant and not be disturbed by material happiness or distress. Of course, one may say that he is not disturbed by material happiness, but he does not know that just after one enjoys so-called material happiness, material distress will follow. This is the law of the material world. Lord Kapila states that the yoga system is the science of the spirit. One practices yoga in order to attain perfection on the spiritual platform. There is no question of material happiness or distress. It is transcendental. Lord Kapila will eventually explain how it is transcendental, but the preliminary introduction is given here.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj:
So here Kapila is speaking to his mother about yoga. Ofcourse yoga is a very general term and here is adhyatmika yoga. So adhyatmika usually refers to something impersonal like Dattatreya may speak adhyatmika yoga [Laughs]. So, adhyatmika literally means concerning atma. So we can say what’s wrong with atma? Krishna says you have to understand you are atma, not the body, True ! However often atma becomes the ultimate goal and thus we realize atma, that’s it. So like self-realization becomes the ultimate goal, – atma, ‘i am atma’. This often becomes equated with brahman. ‘i am brahman’. So therefore, it means, ‘i merge in brahman [Laughs]’. So adhyatmika yoga often means impersonal, jnana yoga etc.
Of course we see here the chapter is ‘Glories of devotional service’, ultimately it’s not about that, but the general idea of adhyatmika yoga would be impersonal, by convention, you could say. So anyway Kapila actually discusses all yogas and if you look at these chapters he’s discussed in quite some detail karma yoga with varnashram. Duties of Grihastha, sannyasis, vanaprastha, brahmacharis, sudras, vaishya, ksatriyas, brahmanas. He also discussed jnana yoga in detail and even ashtanga yoga and we’ll see in the 11th canto Krishna himself teaches arjuna the same thing detailed analysis of varnashram, karma yoga, jnana yoga, ashtanga yoga and gives all the siddhis, not 8 siddhis but 21 siddhis you can get from yoga and then he also speaks about bhakti yoga. So we should not be bewildered by this it’s all called yoga and it all gets praised. But still we should see what is actually recommended by the Lord, what is described and then what is recommended [Laughs].
Now this is quite a controversial topic. Because it’s in Bhagavatam, you can quote it and say this is what Krishna wants, this is what Prabhupad wants. So we can quote all about varnashram and the position of women or the position of sudras or the position of brahmanas etc. Prabhupad wants to establish brahmanical class of people or Prabhupad wants women to be in a subordinate position. We can quote from all the things there, it’s in Bhagavatam definitely. But then of course here we have jnana yoga, where you give up everything. Varnashrama is maya, useless etc [Laughs] contrary instruction. Then we get to bhakti, ‘sarva dharma praitajya’ surrender unto me, ignore it all [Laughs].
Whereas karma yoga is based on distinctions of gunas. People divided up into categories by gunas and by age. So we get ashramas and varnas etc. Whereas jnana starts we don’t want to think about material classification. It’s all one, then we get to bhakti again ‘tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ’, give up all this dharma. Dharma is limiting, it’s all material and that’s carried on in Caitanya Caritamrta by Caitanya mahaprabhu, also starts rejecting everything as being superficial and to do with the body but we’re not concerned with the body we’re concerned with not just atma but with supreme Lord and atma. So simultaneously we get all sorts of recommendations to do so many things and simultaneously give them all up in favor of the highest principle bhakti yoga. So that’s why we have to be very careful when we read the scriptures and try to understand what is the actual intent of everything. But it becomes difficult sometimes, we don’t know so because it is scripture so we can’t say it’s all maya and just reject it. But we have to try to solve the contradictory statements.
So that’s where it becomes a little difficult for people, because if we’re attached to one thing we don’t want to get contradicted by the opposite. If we’re attached to varnashram when Krishna says ‘tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ’ then we say, well, it doesn’t actually mean that, it’s kind of renounced, but not everything. On the other hand, those who are interested in equality for all freedom and whatever and we don’t like the rules. Yeah, give it all up just do bhakti, surrender to the Lord completely finished. So we can go to extremes to justify our position and we can support that by Bhagavatam or manu smriti or whatever we can quote so many things to support our idea and that’s true. But that actually doesn’t resolve the contradictions that’s there and we understand the principle of the contradiction and how we apply it in our life.
So yes, there is contradictory elements but generally the thing is that scriptures are according to qualification and if you’re qualified in the gunas then you must do karma yoga and follow your varna and your ashram and all that. If you’re stuck in the gunas. And if you get to sattva guna as a brahmana then you can get out. You can do jnana yoga you’re qualified for jnana yoga and astanga yoga, because you’re suspendedly detached from the material world as i said here you should be detached from happiness and distress of this world. Those in rajaguna, tama cannot do so they’re not qualified for jnana yoga. Those who are Brahminical, actually Brahminical in qualification then they’re qualified. So they can do adhyatma yoga, jnana yoga etc.,
So in this way according to gunas, we have different qualifications and for people in general, they’re not going to be in sattva guna. 95% of the people are in tamo guna or rajo guna, less than 5% maybe.. 1% is in sattva. So basically if everybody has to follow varna-ashram, very few people are going to be qualified for jnana. So the instructions.. ‘Give up varnashram dharma and karma yoga’ it’s all maya, that’s only an instruction for very few people and most people will have to follow those instructions dharma etc. So therefore, people who are interested in Varnashram fine, they’ll get great comfort in that.
However, when we come to bhakti, then bhakti is quite different. Yes, it also rejects karma yoga but it also rejects jnana yoga [Laughs]. So it rejects all the processes for elevating through tamo guna and rajaguna and sattva guna and even liberation. Rejects all of that. So therefore we can say well, then that person has to be beyond sattva guna, nirguna and that person is even rarer. So therefore yes bhakti just rejects everything jnana yoga, asthanga yoga and karma yoga, but it’s only for very few people. Less people than even the brahmanas. We kind of see that in Caitanya’s discussion where he talks about the animals are there, the plants are there then the animals are there, the four-legged animals are there then the monkeys are there, then the human beings are there then we have varnashram, human beings then we get the brahmanas on top finally we get the Vaishnavas who are very very rare at the very top. So if the brahmins are 1% then the Vaishnavas are 0.01% or less [Laughs]. So therefore when we talk about ‘tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ’ worship the Lord that’s for very very few people. So therefore, we cannot really follow that we cannot apply that to people in general that would be the traditional argument.
But Bhagavatham actually states the opposite, the bhakti is for everybody it’s the rarest it’s for everybody and of course Lord Caitanya, even more emphatically says Nama sankirtan for everybody. Yeah not even the people in the varnashram system for the mlecchas and the dog eaters and everybody. So in other words it’s for 100% of the people, not for 0.01% or something – Bhakti ! And even if that, reject everything. So therefore it’s not just for rare people, process of bhakti is for everybody, but of course the question how can it be for everybody because it’s the rarest and only people who are beyond the gunas can do it. The answer is that, bhakti itself is not in the gunas at all, it does not arise from the gunas, whereas karma yoga and jnana yoga certainly arise from the gunas, bhakti yoga arises from Krishna it is nirguna in itself.
Which way? Well, if it’s nirguna then only people who are nirguna can practice, they are very rare. Answer is that, though it looks apparently like that, actually the qualification for bhakti is not to be nirguna the qualification is shraddha, faith. So then we say, well the faith will depend on the gunas also and only someone who has got the sattva guna has sufficient faith to take to the process of bhakti. So therefore again it’s rare. But answer to that is NO! Faith does not depend on gunas. So faith can arise in a tamo guna person or rajo guna person or a sattva guna person or a nirguna person. It can arise in anybody. How is it possible? How can that faith and bhakti in the Lord arise? And the answer is mercy of devotees. Due to mercy of devotees and the mercy of devotees also is nirguna because it’s also bhakti. So therefore the mercy of devotees is the cause of shraddha, not the gunas !
Sattva guna is the cause of jnana yoga and rajo guna tamo guna is the cause of varnashrama. You have faith in those things in the gunas and you follow. Faith in the bhakti, faith in the supreme Lord is beyond the gunas and it is not caused by the gunas at all. It’s caused by the mercy of devotees. So if a devotee who’s practicing pure bhakti is merciful to a person in tamoguna, rajaguna, sattva they develop faith and they can do bhakti. So in that sense it becomes not rare, because it’s open for everyone. Only question is how much mercy can the devotees distribute and how much mercy can people accept [Laughs] that’s all [Laughs]. But nevertheless it’s not restricted like everything else according to gunas, it’s open for everybody.
And thus we see the Bhagavatham says even the dog-eater who’s not in the varnashrama system who’s lower than sudra who’s in very low tamo guna by his karma if he chants the holy name once he is superior to the brahmana. He surpassed the gunas. How is that possible? [Laughs] Because bhakti is all-powerful and particularly the name is all-powerful. So in this way the contradiction is resolved about the rarity of bhakti and only a few people can practice it and if you do bhakti you give up everything else no? Because the conclusion is that bhakti to the Lord and chanting the holy name are so powerful that it disregards the gunas completely. So that is why Bhagavatham starts rejecting everything else – jnana, yoga, karma, yoga, varnashrama everything gets rejected, as being inferior. For the person who has that faith in pure bhakti and starts practicing it’s much better than anything else. So that is how we can resolve this question of contradictory statements and contradictory processes which are sometimes present within seem to be present in the scriptures. What is the resolving issue? Bhakti and nama sankirtan. That resolves everything [Laughs] goes beyond everything.
Of course this becomes very very good news for people who want Vaishnava Diksha Gurus, we are free from everything, just chant hare Krishna [Laughs]. But then i’ll raise another point here, that actually the controversy is not about bhakti or the holy name, the controversy is about Diksha and Diksha is not the holy name, Diksha is pancharatric mantra, in its technical sense. When scripture talks about Diksha and whatever, it’s not talking about chanting Hare Krishna. It’s talking about getting your second initiation mantras, not even the brahma gayatri mantra, the other mantras, that’s the Diksha . The other is the vedic Diksha brahma gayatri, upanayana, vedic Diksha .
But we’re talking about pancharatric Diksha that is Krishna mantra, Gauranga mantra, that’s Diksha and it belongs to pancharatric. That has rules and so people will say ‘NO, Vaishnava Guru is not possible Diksha Guru is not possible’, look at Bhagavatham ! Somebody says, this shastra says that, Manu samhita says this it cannot be. So yes, Diksha is part of pancharatric system, it has more rules and of course, we can argue that, okay, that’s so sad. But Lord Caitanya’s movement is different and when we see.. Jhanava was giving Diksha , Advaita -acharya’s wife was giving Diksha , Srinivas acharya’s wife was giving Diksha . So, others sampardhayas no, no, no, we don’t have it, because they’re strict followers of Pancharatra. Somehow the Gaudiyas are a little more liberal. So they relax the Diksha and we see there’s so many rules for pancharatric Diksha in other Sampradayas. Sri Sampradaya follows panchasamskara very strictly with the tapa and the pundra and all this stuff what do we do? Give the mantra, finished nothing else [Laughs]. It was a very simple process and even in many Sampradayas like Radharaman temple what do they do? They give the mantra that’s your Diksha , finished no ceremony, nothing. No pancha samskara give the mantra, finished okay, your Diksha , finished. Lord Caitanya didn’t even get a name he just got the mantra, that was it no sacrifice, nothing else.
So in other words the Gaudiya Sampradaya, we tend to even simplify Pancharatra often a lot. And then consequently we do get a permission that Vaishnavis can do initiation of course there were exalted ones like Nityananda’s wife or Srinivasacharya’s wife very exalted. But we see after that in the lines, particularly the Brahminical lines, the Goswami lines the Brahminical disciples initiated by Jhanava or her nephew, i guess it was Virachandra, whom she initiated, then he gave initiation to so many Brahmins they started these Goswami lines and you’ll see in those lines so many women Gurus the paramparas… Diksha paramparas traces the women, i think in Bhaktivinoda’s line i think we get five matajis within 500 years 400 years you get like five matajis there so it was not uncommon in the Gaudiya Sampradaya. And even these were Brahminical people who were so so full of varnashrama, etc. Then they had women there of course, we can argue that this was seminal lines, by birth so we don’t really agree with that so the father and the mother and then they have children, they become the Gurus the son or the daughter becomes a Guru, and then they pass it on to their son and daughter, and this way it went on. So we don’t really agree with that but anyway, it happened within the Gaudiya Sampradaya. Of course, because it’s all unbonified because it’s, you know, caste-Goswami lines or whatever.
But we can’t apply the same thing to Sri Vaishnavas all caste-Goswami lines it’s all Brahminical lines the father gives to the son, he gives to his son funnily, they never gave it to a mataji what happened if they didn’t have any sons, only daughters i don’t know what happened to them. The line dies out, maybe, in Sri Vaishnava they had 71, I think they started out with 71 I think maybe they got 20 left I don’t know how many, some are left but maybe they just died out whereas in the Gaudiya Sampradaya probably if the daughter only one daughter, no sons then the daughter becomes the Diksha Guru and then she gives it on to somebody else. Anyway, as I say, in the Gaudiya Sampradaya they’re a little more liberal in the sense of that so that even though the Pancharatra rules are there, they were bending the rules a little bit [Laughs] as this is for Pancharatra itself.
However, of course, Prabhupad says well, yes, it was Jhanava etc is rare, so definitely in comparison to the Vaishnava male Diksha Gurus, the mataji is rare so to speak. Even if we account for that but it’s not so rare and it was not just the most elevated people it was people in, you know sons and daughters later on also who did it.. Vaishnava Gaudiya Sampradaya a little bit unique in that respect as compared to other Sampradayas. Even i think Vallabha Sampradaya, which is also quite liberal, but i don’t think they have any women acharyas in their line i don’t think so. At present i don’t know, maybe there is but anyway, basically i don’t think there is even there. So anyway Diksha is there but is somewhat restricted by Pancharatra Gurus.
However, the name is not restricted by Pancharatra and thus Lord Caitanya says Hari-naam does not depend on Diksha , to get perfection. It is higher than the mantras. The name is higher than the mantras and does not depend on Diksha . So therefore the fascination, we have to be Diksha Gurus is not really applicable to Lord Caitanya’s movement [Laughs], because everybody can chant the holy name and it doesn’t require Diksha at all and you can get perfection. So then we can say well yeah, just chant Hare Krishna, that’s very good news you don’t have to accept Guru and surrender to Guru and give all your money to Guru [Laughs] especially if you have questions about whether a Guru is perfect or not. In one sense it is free, like the Ritviks, only Prabhupad is Guru, so we don’t have to surrender to anybody else, and then that is because, of the idea that we have so many Gurus, but they are not really perfect, so how can we surrender completely to them etc.
So the whole idea is about this.. the whole idea of Diksha Guru and you have to surrender to a Diksha Guru and therefore you get perfection, but that’s not what Caitanya Caritamrita says or even Bhagavatham doesn’t say that. You chant the holy name, you get perfection and that does not require Diksha so therefore the question to become a Diksha Guru is not so important ultimately for or to find a Diksha Guru or be a Diksha Guru is not so important for getting your perfection. It’s how you chant the holy name, that’s what’s important.
We can go to the extreme and say therefore, we don’t need Gurus at all even shiksha Gurus and Vishwanath actually states that one place in his commentary on 6th canto yeah Ajamil, no Guru at all he went to Vaikuntha. However, the counter to that is he heard from the Vishnu dhudas, he got association with devotees in Haridwar. So he had shiksha Gurus. He didn’t take Diksha but because chanting the name Narayan or Krishna doesn’t need Diksha and you can get perfection but you do need to chant purely to get perfection, suddha-naam we don’t want Namabhas.
So we want pure name to get to the stage of pure name, we need knowledge. To get knowledge, we have to get scripture. To get scripture, we need devotees to teach it. So we can understand who is Krishna, who is devata, what is pure chanting, what is impure chanting, what is pure bhakti, what is mixed bhakti, who is Krishna, what is spiritual body, all these things.. So we need teachings in order to chant pure name. So therefore at least we need some shiksha Guru. But we don’t need the Diksha Guru for perfection and chanting the holy name. So therefore as i said the controversy is a little bit misplaced, because actually the importance in our Sampradaya is not to trace a Diksha line but a shiksha line anyway, as we see from Bhagavad gita line. So we insist that, Diksha is so important why don’t we trace Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s Diksha Guru Vipinbihari Goswami, who was in the caste Goswami line, whose great ancestor was a mataji Guru [Laughs], we don’t because the shiksha is more important.
So therefore, ultimately we get perfection by chanting the holy name with the guidance of a shiksha Guru basically, whether you have Diksha or not that’s kind of a secondary issue. Of course it’s also said that, if we definitely avoid Diksha that’s also offensive, because it is a tradition in our Sampradaya and as an opportunity, then we can also take Diksha , we don’t avoid it in any case especially if we want to do deity worship. But the main factor is, the purity in chanting the holy name, that does not depend on your Diksha mantra at all, it depends on the purity of your chanting which depends on the teachings that you get. So therefore, the shiksha is more important for perfection and we can connect with the Sampradaya through shiksha which is exactly what we trace in our parampara. That’s how we’re connecting through shiksha line, not a Diksha line at all.
So the whole argument in this present controversy and even the argument with the Ritviks, kind of a false based on a false premise that the Diksha Guru is the all-important person, rather the shiksha Guru is important and of course we can say Prabhupad is the main shiksha Guru also. So therefore, yeah, you can worship Prabhupad as your main Guru, your main shiksha Guru not the Diksha Guru and you can surrender to him and trace your parampara that way and you can have other Gurus as shiksha or Diksha Guru whatever, but you take Prabhupad as your main shiksha Guru and worship him as most…, you can do that also, that’s the alternative to having Ritvik philosophy.
So of course we had a little group, during the three year moratorium on the Vaishnavi Diksha Guru resolution. So we couldn’t do it at that time they couldn’t institute it so then our bureau members and GBC members had a little group and discussed, discussed, discussed discussed what is the conclusion? Well, Prabhupad says both things – yeah, in 1969 matajis can become initiates. They can be initiated Gurus in 1975 when they take a bhakti shastri exam or bhakti vedanta exam along with the men everybody can…so, this of course is you know, liberal a little bit liberal, more than Pancharatra very liberal everybody take an exam and then you become initiating Gurus [Laughs] and other people say no, no, no, you have to be an Uttamadikari to be a Guru and this and that but Prabhupad says, you just take an exam and finish. So everybody.. all my disciples.. which means they are like five years in the movement they become Gurus [Laughs]. Now to get initiated you have to be ten years in the movement, maybe first initiation and you have to be fifteen years in the movement to take second initiation. So Prabhupad, very liberal everybody, all my disciples.
But then of course it’s a letter it’s 1969, two years after he started the movement maybe… and then he never did that he never made an exam never made the Gurus later on he appointed some Gurus in 1977, but he didn’t do that. So then there’s arguments like that and then of course there’s the famous statement, Suniti was a mother and a woman therefore she could not be a Diksha Guru, she could not give initiation and Narada muni became the Diksha Guru. So then that’s from scripture itself from Bhagavatam so that’s the stronger statement we’ll say… then we have the counter statement to that no, that’s not about ISKCON that’s a general statement from Pancharatra or that’s a statement from satya yuga in Svayambhuva manvantara millions and millions and millions of years ago, that was the state, that’s not the state now, and you can argue like that it’s out of context… as we can say the statements all about Varna ashram stated here are out of context. Therefore people unqualified for bhakti, if you’re qualified for bhakti, then you have to follow this you have to follow that rule it’s secondary, so you can argue both ways, because some of the statements then we do take even though they’re general statements from Pancharatra or whatever maybe for people, but not for ISKCON, you can take it either way, the statements in the letters in 1969 are specific. Prabhupad is talking about you know, my disciples my boys and girls become Diksha Gurus, obviously it is for ISKCON, the problem is of course it is 1969, specific letters, so we don’t know if that’s a general thing for everybody or whether he was just saying that to encourage people, whatever, because we do have the contrary letter in 1974 from Sunithi, which is stronger. Now you can say well it’s only contextual it doesn’t mean for us when she’s talking about Sunithi was a woman etc or you can argue the opposite the letters in 1969 are contextual only for Hamsadutta [Laughs]. You know you can argue back and forth like that.
There is however a letter in 1974 also in Caitanya Caritamrita same here as the Sunithi statement and it’s also from scripture from Caitanya Caritamrita and there Prabhupad says men and women all people, young people can all be spiritual masters and it seems to be in this movement. So it’s specific to the movement also, but he does not say Diksha Guru, he says spiritual masters [Laughs] so in the statement of Sunithi, Prabhupad says Sunithi was giving instructions, she was a shiksha Guru and he says shiksha Guru, Diksha Guru equal. But she could not be a Diksha Guru. So then how do we resolve all the statements 69 letters, Sunithi statement Bhagavatam, Caitanya caritamrita, so our conclusion is, well at least shiksha Guru definitely he’s saying that, as regarding ISKCON. As for the statement is this a contextual statement or a general statement that Sunithi was woman and mother, she could not be the Diksha Guru is that contextual only for satya yuga or for svayambhuva manvantara and not for ISKCON, we don’t know and with the Prabhupad, he never actually made any mataji Gurus anyway and he didn’t institute this thing in 1975 to make an exam and everybody becomes Guru, he didn’t do that either. So it’s a little ambiguous.
But at least, shiksha Guru was there, and of course what’s wrong with shiksha Guru, nothing. it’s superior, it’s equal and actually superior to Diksha Guru as far as Caitanya Caritamrita is concerned. What’s the big what’s the big controversy.. everybody just be shiksha Gurus, we don’t need Diksha [Laughs]. So anyway that’s when we read scriptures we have to do think a little bit about the context of everything. It’s a general statement it’s for ISKCON or whatever okay.
Okay, Hare Krsna !
Q&A
1.) Maharaj, You explained about how Diksha line is primarly siksha and all of that. But then it’s importance on Diksha , seems to start from Bhakti siddhanta saraswati thakur. He kind of in the Gaudiya line became like the central piece of everything and then shiksha is kind of like a qualification to get Diksha that’s how it looks and then he also made this idea that holy name is Diksha as well… you know the first initiation is basically a structure where you need to get the holy name from a Guru and then you know kind of followed that system Gaudiya mutt is still following that to some extent and so why did Bhakti Siddhanta Thakur made holy name dependent on Diksha ?
Well it may appear like that, but if we look at his system he did not call getting the holy name what you call first initiation it was not called initiation, Diksha referred to the second thing only, it was also separate from getting the Brahma Gayatri. There were two separate things, that’s vedic Diksha so Diksha meant getting your Krishna mantra. After you get that, you’re qualified to get the brahma gayatri, because you’re a Vaishnava and you get it afterwards the first one is not called initiation it’s called getting the holy name.
Of course we say well holy name you don’t really have to get it, through a ceremony or anything you may just like ajamil just named his son Narayana, he got the holy name that way but that was nama bas. And even to get to that ceremony nowadays we say you have to chant 16 rounds in his system it wasn’t like that, no you could just chant or maybe you’re not chanting at all. So it may be an introduction to chanting itself you don’t know anything but you’re very serious you like Krishna and you want to follow Lord Caitanya’s movement okay i’ll give you some beads you start chanting Hari-naam. So it was like an introduction to chanting in one sense and it was a little more liberal than what we take as what we call first initiation. They didn’t call it initiation at all and it was quite informal and there was no sacrifice or anything attached to it.
And what he does say is that those who have taken shelter to the holy name are superior to those who have taken Diksha . Diksha is for people who don’t have faith in the holy name [Laughs] he makes a statement in one of his lectures like that, it’s not that he did emphasize Diksha as such in some places he’s saying that chanting the holy name is superior to Diksha . So therefore of course what happens is that, in any organization, this is my assumption, in an organization as time goes on we codify things, we make structures and we depend more on ritual, and we give names to things. You have posts and things like this and a structure president and a vice president and a secretary and this person and this assistant to this we make all sorts of structures in an organization, you know. So that the Diksha is a good structural nomenclature to indicate a certain position in society. A certain person is qualified in a certain way, so therefore he’s got a certain authority because of that a certain position, a certain reputation, etc. So it becomes a convenient marker. So i think that’s what happened in his society therefore they would emphasize that that a Diksha person is more serious a Diksha person is you know, gets more recognition is recognized, etc.
So that’s how, and therefore the goal of a devotee would be to take Diksha [Laughs] rather than just have you know, Hari-naam even though Bhaktivedanta said Hari-naam is more important superior actually because Hari-naam is more important than the mantra for our spiritual progress. So that’s probably carried over into ISKCON also, and therefore we emphasize that you have to take Diksha and whatever because, but then we carry it on to the first one so if you take the first initiation, that is a Diksha and people don’t really consider second initiation so much important.
Even though scripturally it is the Diksha so we kind of transfer the whole thing to the Diksha , to the first initiation and then we say Diksha into the holy name which is technically wrong but we call it Hari-naam Diksha or whatever, which is like not a proper nomenclature, because Hari-naam does not have Diksha at all it’s a separate thing, mantras have Diksha but not the holy name because it’s not secret at all. So therefore the emphasis is taken on Diksha because then it’s useful organizationally speaking to identify people at certain levels. Ah, your first initiation, ok second initiation, ah, that’s very good and we categorize people like that and those who are not initiated, ok you’re a throaty spot, you know we don’t care about you too much just congregation [Laughs] whatever.
So that’s it’s convenient in one sense to label like that, but then at the same time it also is a little problematic because then labels themselves aren’t the final you know, determination of a person’s value at all you know so we have to look at their devotions more than anything whether they’re initiated or not initiated, whatever so we get like George Harrison, so he never took initiation from Prabhupad, but Prabhupad gave him such great respect as a devotee, not just because he’s just a karmi musician or something like that you respect him as a devotee without initiation and nobody’s going to you know, disrespect him or anything like that, so Prabhupad says, in one sense, real initiation it’s internal, when you take Krishna consciousness seriously that’s real initiation, so none of those are completely Pancharatra it’s a real, like a liberal interpretation of Diksha itself into, you know, just mentally accepting. But that’s in line with the idea of Hari-naam being the ultimate thing which does not require Diksha anyway. So i think just because of organization, we tend to emphasize these things.
But even Prabhupad, he talks about you have to accept Guru, etc. He doesn’t usually say Diksha Guru he just says Guru. And when the scripture talks about accepting Guru, they don’t say Diksha Guru also in fact, Diksha is not mentioned in Bhagavatam, except in the case of this Narada muni giving Diksha to Dhruva, but other than that you don’t see it it’s all shiksha. Narada teaches vyasa vyasa teaches Sukadeva teaches Pariksit, it’s all shiksha they’re not talking about who’s your Diksha Guru at all, it’s all shiksha so that’s the main emphasis to carry on the knowledge and the parampara we trace a Diksha parampara we’re tracing the mantra and ultimately we’re tracing your pancharatric procedure, that’s all.
2.) The other aspect of Diksha , shiksha is, at the time of Diksha Guru takes all your sins and there’s also this concept i don’t know how true it is that because Diksha is only one Guru and that relationship is an eternal relationship.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, we can say, well what is the relationship of Pariksit and Sukadeva, it’s not eternal? Oh doesn’t make sense [Laughs]
Devotee: So because in some places Prabhupad talks about this Diksha being connected to Diksha it’s like a permanent relationship.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: They say, Diksha or Guru ?
Devotee: He says Guru.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, so not necessarily Diksha Guru, because otherwise why are we tracing a shiksha line at all if it’s impermanent [Laughs].
Devotee: So the relationship with spiritual master is eternal, because it continues in…
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Diksha or shiksha yeah, it could be either. And the worship of Guru usually, although we call you worship the spiritual master like god and all that it’s from Upanishad and actually it’s shiksha Gurus, it’s not the Diksha Gurus, because they didn’t have Vaishnav Diksha then they had their Upanayanam Guru which is the father but then the shiksha Guru was the one in the ashram so when you go to the ashram and you learn all about brahman or something, you have to offer your respects to your Guru like god, etc., So most of those things about worshipping Guru, etc are for shiksha Gurus not even Diksha Gurus to have soul devotion to your Guru.
3.) The last question is, you talked about different kind of yoga, you know for bhakti there is no qualification and gunas have nothing to do with bhakti, but then practically when we follow Krishna consciousness, we see that when i am in tamo guna, my chanting is probably more of ignorance so i end up doing nama aparadh and same like in passionate also it ends up being not conducive, because i am doing it for myself, but there are sattva gunas that seem to be helping to chant better and at least go to nama abasa stage. So there seems to be a relationship between the gunas and bhakti so how do we understand that bhakti is out of these gunas and there is no qualification?
Well, in the Kapila’s teachings he talks about tamo guna bhakti, rajo guna bhakti and sattva guna bhakti of nine types each, but if you look at sattva guna bhakti, that also is not very good because it tends to go to liberation, rather than to prema. So therefore, in one sense it is favourable because you control your mind but then you get into a peaceful situation where you enter into brahman instead so in that sense, it is not so good you know.
So anyway, the gunas are not a cause of bhakti because it is nirguna but they are a cause of jñāna and realization of atma. So it has got a favorable-unfavorable aspect you are more peaceful, you can control the mind in sattva guna, but then you may tend to get into atma rather than Krishna. So that is the negative aspect of that.
So as for practicing bhakti, yes because we are in sadhana bhakti we tend to get influenced by the gunas Vishwanath Chakravarti states that actually it is not tama guna bhakti or rajo guna bhakti, the bhakti is always pure, like the name is always pure. But we call it nama abhas or chanting in tamo guna or whatever it is not because the name is impure or just like Krishna comes in the material world it is not that Krishna is subject to the gunas it is always pure, so the name is always pure. But we are affected by the gunas, ourselves even if we are practicing bhakti even if we accept pure bhakti we may be affected by the gunas so we call it tamo guna, rajo guna, sattva guna, etc. Which should dissipate and get destroyed, as we go through anartana vritti and get to nishtha, ruchi, asakti, etc. So that we have to be patient with.
4.) Maharaj my question is related to that as well… Does, Diksha.. as far as i have heard as prabhu said when we take Diksha, he is taking the karma…
Well, yeah, yeah which is a false concept, but anyway i have a whole presentation on that one too [Laughs] i gave many years ago. So in one sense, it is true. Because in Hari Bhakti Vilas it says that you shouldn’t take many disciples because you accept his karma, but then he says just as not just for a Guru, spiritual Guru even a material Guru, a priest takes disciples to teach them karma yoga he also accepts that karma the husband accepts the karma of the wife, the king accepts the karma of the citizens how is that? Not that he completely takes the karma and they are free, citizens are all free to do anything they want, they don’t get any karma, put it all on the king, NO. Some percentage we can say the reason is that the person in the responsible position is taking responsibility for the person if they commit a sinful activity, he bears responsibility for the conduct, so the disciple does a sinful activity then the Guru also takes some responsibility… whether he is a Diksha Guru or a shiksha Guru or just a music teacher, whatever [Laughs] responsible for the conduct of the student then they have to share something in that sense.
Devotee: So that applies for even siksha Guru?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, yeah if he takes responsibility for his conduct, then yeah. But as for destroying karma, chanting the holy name once destroyed all the karmas of ajamila so we are talking about karmas anyway past, present, future karmas all destroyed. Bhakti destroys karma, name destroys karma chanting 16 rounds already before you even get first initiation. So your karma is in essence, it shouldn’t be a botheration.
In any way, we are not really interested in karma at all, our process is bhakti not destroy karma otherwise you destroy karma you get liberation we don’t want liberation.
Devotee: So in ISKCON, then especially in the present day there is very strong emphasis on Diksha everyone is concerned you know..”Who is your Guru? Who are you aspiring?” So you partly answered that anyway in terms of organisation.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, it also has some negative effects also..
Devotee: So it is also partial ? Because especially as Kaliyuga progresses people are becoming less and less qualified and more and more disturbed. So when they have such a strong emphasis on Diksha, then it kind of encourages, the perspective disciple to take initiation very seriously.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Okay that could be a factor definitely, but then we can say there are other factors also, which are maybe material [Laughs] we see that i was just reading something on hearing on youtube cults, different weird cults there is one korean, christian cult or something like that and there is some christian cults in america, then they attract people, because they become peaceful and they become happy and they get all the people together and they encourage them to give up all their connections to your family and whatever like that, sacrifice all your energy and your money and everything to the organization and get completely involved in the organization and there is one leader at the top and you dedicate everything to him.
So and people get attracted to that, with the promise that they get peace and they get happiness they get community, they get everything and they have to surrender to this person, which we will say that is all fanatical and it’s a cult etc. So we can say the same thing and the same thing applies to some people who join ISKCON, they have that same motivation which is ultimately material of getting rid of all of their material problems or whatever having a nice community and surrendering completely to one person. So that tendency is there in people, just to surrender and not think too much and that he bears all the responsibility and i just sit there and you know like that. So that’s there and it’s not a good tendency, because it leads to fanaticism and it can lead to disappointment and so many other things and exploitation and so many things can happen as a result of that so we have to be very careful of that.
As for enthusiasm, yes it can be, but as I’m saying, it doesn’t have to be the Diksha Guru that gives you the enthusiasm and inspires you, it can be anybody, any devotee who may not demand the same you know obedience and whatever like that, so you know so a person who is a little more less, more skeptical of fanaticism etc. Then he may choose not to get initiation, because of that, you know kind of blind obedience to the Guru type of thing which often happens among disciples, so that would be the negative factor… the positive factor, yes it can encourage definitely, so that’s why we still have it in ISKCON. But the negative factor is, this opposite thing, which also happens and therefore GBC has made many attempts to try to calm that down [Laughs] that tendency down and they have educational course disciple course etc, they have a Guru course also for the Gurus but you know whether it’s actually controlling that or not, i don’t know.
5.) Maharaj, on that context, we see the extreme cases of Guru bhakti in shastra and you know like even in our Sampradaya, even when Shyamananda prabhu was beaten by Hrdhaya Caitanya, saying that you are like you know i am a sakha you are like thinking in a gopi bhava and then others are trying to stop you oh no he is doing something good for me by punishing me why are you stopping me it’s like almost like a physical abuse and he is kind of welcoming it and then so you see that not only in our Sampradaya in Sri Sampradaya somebody gave up their eyes for their Guru and then you see that people go to extreme levels to satisfy the spiritual master and it seems to be very well glorified and even Krishna then you know accepts oh he has done something for Guru, so then it looks like, that kind of to use the word hardcore Guru bhakti seems to be very heavily rewarded as well.
Yeah yeah, so that’s there in scripture, we have many examples of it like in Sri Sampradaya and we find it in our Sampardaya as well. So nothing wrong with that of course you can be supported by scripture Guru is like god surrender everything to Guru these are very common things that’s what everybody in India more or less have this idea about Guru and surrender to Guru and it’s good on an ideal level.
On a practical level and of course in ISKCON itself, it may not be so good, because one you cannot have if you have that loyalty you cannot be loyal to ISKCON [Laughs] you cannot be loyal to GBC or Prabhupad even because you got your loyalty to your Guru and you only think of him so it’s kind of difficult to do it that’s one problem organizational problem now if you are a separate movement, fine surrender to Guru, fine, no problem where Guru is the management and everything.
The other problem is that, we have Gurus and we respect the Guru but then we also respect the Guru depending on his level of advancement and it’s not that all Gurus are on the same level. So Prabhupad even says, yes we have the shiksha Guru, some of them are very advanced some are less advanced. So then we have to treat them a little bit differently and obviously the one who is on the highest level we can surrender everything. The one who is on a lesser level then we surrender but not on the same level the one who is on a lesser level, we surrender a little bit less. So we have to use our intelligence also and how we surrender etc. especially within ISKCON, there are so many fall downs and whatever. So that of course is one reason why the Ritviks, they say ok, we don’t want any Diksha Gurus at all, because all the surrender stuff is blind and people get disappointed and whatever and if we have Prabhupad as the Diksha Guru he is perfect, there is no fall down at all… so that’s a good argument in one sense, in favor of such a thing but of course the counter argument is that Diksha Guru or shiksha Guru doesn’t really matter but we should accept them according to the level of advancement and worship them accordingly not that they are on the highest level, but we can put Prabhupad on the highest level but we don’t take him as Diksha Guru, we take him as shiksha Guru.
Devotee: In that sense, even an organization is not needed..i mean to chant the holy name or achieve perfection like you know or ISKCON itself or the whole management of ISKCON also we can apply the same argument, that all of that is not needed for somebody to advance
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: As i said, we need some shiksha and the shiksha should be parampara somehow shiksha parampara that much you need, whether it’s in the organization or outside, fine
6.) So Maharaj, then.. So generally speaking some people take siksha without necessarily taking Diksha , accept Guru i would say as far as i know generally speaking the person you take Diksha from is generally the person you are most inspired by. Therefore, the person you take siksha from also..is that one reason… ?
So often the two things are combined shiksha and Diksha but then the other the problem there is that then the disciple will just think i cannot take instructions from anybody else and i won’t. But that’s also a false concept, because we see that Bhaktivinod Thakur had a shiksha Guru different from the Diksha Guru and he became more prominent and then in ISKCON we see that the Diksha Guru is the shiksha Guru also, but then sometimes that Diksha Guru doesn’t give that much instruction and they’re taking instruction from everybody else anyway [Laughs] but then they don’t respect them in the same way, so that’s also a little bit odd because where the people who is giving the instruction and the inspiration, they should get the proper respect, even if he’s not the Diksha Guru, so they have to be a little bit broad-minded.
7.) Just one last question when you are taking about Bhagavatham you were telling that lets say in Gita, Krishna was describing all types of yoga and at the very end he said forget about everything and surrender unto me.. in Bhagavatham though you see that there is a progression from first all way to 10th canto…10th canto has everything so then after 10 canto why in 11th canto does Krishna describe the different type of yoga, jnana, karma so after sarva dharman has already been done..
Well, of course, we don’t have any practical reason why it would be there technically the the final Summum Bonum and 10th canto should be at the end and everything else should be leading up to that and of course throughout there they’re discussing the ten topics including sarga, visarga upto nirodha – destruction, when 12th canto destruction is taking place and then 10th canto is asraya which is the ultimate one final shelter is Krishna but it doesn’t occur at the end it’s kind of in the middle.
Bhagavad-gita is similar in one sense because it’s the middle six chapters from 7 to 12 which are bhakti-yoga basically and the first chapters are more or less karma-yoga and the last six are jñāna, discussion of gunas and all those and all the sort of stuff like that, so then why not put the bhakti-yoga at the end. Karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga bhakti-yoga, put it at the end. Vishwanath gives an interesting reason he says that well bhakti-yoga is the life of karma-yoga and jñāna-yoga so therefore it’s put in the middle so it contacts both [Laughs] it’s after the karma-yoga and it’s before the jñāna-yoga so it’s in the middle it’s contacting both and giving life to them otherwise they’re useless. That was his explanation.
The other explanation he gives is that the first six chapters’ act like the box like a jewel box and the last six chapters jñāna-yoga are like the cover and the jewel is the bhakti-yoga inside the case [Laughs] so we have the cover in the top and the jewel of bhakti-yoga in the middle, so they’re like the protective case of the bhakti-yoga that’s his explanation. So i suppose he gives the same explanation Bhagavatam, the 10th canto it’s got the cover on the top it’s got the other things on the bottom and it’s nestled between them. Esoteric explanation that’s what he gives.
8.) Maharaj why [inaudible] in Varnasramam trying very much to set up a farm and stuff it didn’t work out but still they are trying because Srila Prabhupad saying in one letter that my job is not completed. I wanted to establish Varnasram, is he not talking about ISKCON? Is he talking about in general?
No, that’s not a letter, it’s a statement which he apparently made, which is not recorded anywhere but Abhiram says, he said that, so then it’s kind of weaker than a letter in one sense half my work is not done in establishing Varnashram. Of course we shouldn’t doubt, maybe he’s not lying but definitely it’s not in the same position and if we argue that the 1969 letter to Hansadutta and to whoever else that was there all my boys and girls should initiate and you say that’s weak, you would have to say that statement is weaker, of course you could defend it oh, it’s a latter statement because, he said it last year of his life but then again it’s a statement, it’s not even a letter and it’s to a particular person so we don’t know, it’s gone, he’s only encouraging that disciple, so in that sense that statement itself is weak.
Of course there are places where Prabhupad talks about Varnashrama you know, we should establish Varnashrama or whatever like that however we can also see and “Well, Varnashrama is not so important you try to establish but actually, you know, just do bhakti” so then maybe we can just enumerate all the statements he is supporting Varnashrama and all this, forget about it we’ll end up at 50-50. So what to do [Laughs] but if we go by Bhagavatam yes, Krishna talks about it in Bhagavad Gita also Varnashrama, dharma, all that but then He says so the emphasis in any case is always on bhakti and Hari-naam, if you can do it, fine but it should never be an over endeavor and it should never contradict bhakti, so that much you could do. But if you have to struggle struggle all your life to try to do something and don’t accomplish anything what’s the point of it at all ? That’s another thing.
The main problem i think is people try to establish Varnashrama and of course it’s not the yuga dharma anyway, but what aspect are you going to implement that’s the whole question is it the varnas? Very difficult, nobody succeeded in doing that is it the ashrams? We already have the ashrams already there, so we won’t have to endeavor for that. Are we establishing for devotees? Or for public? If you try to establish for public, good luck [Laughs], it’s not going to work [Laughs] try to establish varnas in the public, even ashrams in the public, it’s not going to work at all, you could spend your whole 20 generations, doing it and not accomplish anything because even in India it’s falling apart.
So what actually do you want to establish in terms of Varnashrama it’s very controversial, we don’t know, what Prabhupad wanted ? Of course another thing maybe what Varnashrama for Prabhupad is – to follow four regulative principles, that’s all. Get all the world to follow four regulated principles maybe that’s Varnashrama who knows.. we don’t know so that’s my opinion.
Hare Krishna !
Devotees: Grantharaj Srimad Bhagavatam Ki.. Jai !! HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj Ki.. Jai !! Srila Prabhupad Ki Jai!!!