Srimad Bhagavatam 11.11.2 | HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj | ISKCON Chennai | 22 April 2021
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale
śrīmate bhaktivedānta-svāmin iti nāmine
namas te sārasvate deve gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe
nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe
jaya śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
Reading from Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 11 Chapter 11 Verse 2.
ŚB 11.11.2
śoka-mohau sukhaṁ duḥkhaṁ
dehāpattiś ca māyayā
svapno yathātmanaḥ khyātiḥ
saṁsṛtir na tu vāstavī
Synonyms
śoka — lamentation; mohau — and illusion; sukham — happiness; duḥkham — distress; deha-āpattiḥ — accepting a material body; ca — also; māyayā — by the influence of māyā; svapnaḥ — a dream; yathā — just as; ātmanaḥ — of the intelligence; khyātiḥ — merely an idea; saṁsṛtiḥ — material existence; na — is not; tu — indeed; vāstavī — real.
Translation
Just as a dream is merely a creation of one’s intelligence but has no actual substance, similarly, material lamentation, illusion, happiness, distress and the acceptance of the material body under the influence of māyā are all creations of My illusory energy. In other words, material existence has no essential reality.
Purport
The word deha-āpattiḥ indicates that the living entity falsely identifies himself with the external material body and thus transmigrates from one body to another. Āpatti also indicates great suffering or misfortune. Because of such false identification under the influence of illusion, the living entity experiences the miserable symptoms described here. Māyā means the false concept that anything can exist without Lord Kṛṣṇa or for any purpose other than the pleasure of the Supreme Lord. Although the conditioned living entities are trying to enjoy material sense gratification, the result is always painful, and such painful experiences turn the conditioned soul back toward the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In other words, the ultimate purpose of the material creation is to bring the living entity back to the loving devotional service of the Lord. Therefore, even the sufferings of the material world may be seen as the transcendental mercy of the Personality of Godhead. The conditioned soul, imagining that material objects are meant for his personal enjoyment, bitterly laments the loss of such objects. In this verse, the example is given of a dream in which the material intelligence creates many illusory objects. Similarly, our polluted material consciousness creates the false impression of material sense gratification, but this phantasmagoria, being devoid of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, has no real existence. By surrendering to polluted material consciousness, the living entity is afflicted with innumerable troubles. The only solution is to see Lord Kṛṣṇa within everything and everything within Lord Kṛṣṇa. Thus, one understands that Lord Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer, the proprietor of everything and the well-wishing friend of all living beings.
In material illusion there is no understanding of one’s eternal, spiritual body, nor is there knowledge of the Absolute Truth. Therefore, material existence, even in its most sophisticated or pious form, is always foolishness. One should not misunderstand the example of the dream to mean that the material world has no real existence. Material nature is the manifestation of the Lord’s external potency, just as the spiritual sky is the manifestation of the Lord’s internal potency. Although material objects are subject to transformation and thus have no permanent existence, the material energy is real because it comes from the supreme reality, Lord Kṛṣṇa. It is only our false acceptance of the material body as the factual self and our foolish dream that the material world is meant for our pleasure that have no real existence. They are merely mental concoctions. One should cleanse oneself of material designations and wake up to the all-pervading reality of the Personality of Godhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj:
So, here we have a statement that everything in the material world is not real. So the word vastu means an object or a thing. And vāstavī therefore means that it has some substance. So the statement here is that, the material world is not substantial, it’s not real. Of course, if we take this literally, then this is like Buddhist philosophy or Mayavadi philosophy. And certainly, some commentators who are impersonalists may take it that way.
So we have to be careful how we take the meaning of scripture. If we take them literally, as we do often, then, this supports Mayavadi philosophy. However, we know from other statements in Bhagavatam that this is not so. We see a whole description of how Maha Vishnu glances over prakrti and it manifests the material world. So if it’s all illusion, He can’t even glance. And we talk about avataras appearing within the material world. If the material world is completely false, the avataras are also false.
We see that in the Bhagavatam, a lot of the subject matter is how the Lord creates the material world and maintains the material world and enters into the material world to give guidance to the jivas. Why would the Bhagavatam spend so much time, so many cantos, describing something which doesn’t exist? So therefore, we cannot take this word literally. So certainly, the material world is temporary. And our conception of the world is certainly false. Because the conception of the world is false, that does not mean that the world itself is false.
So if we see a rope and we think it’s a snake, thinking of the rope as a snake is a misconception. But the rope exists. So the material world exists, but our conception of the world is false. Of course, the Mayavadis use the same example to illustrate their philosophy. So only Brahman is real and the material world does not exist. But you can mistake Brahman for the material world. That’s an illusion. So in other words, if we impose an illusion upon Brahman, then we may have a material world appearing. So, in that philosophy, the material world is actually an illusion and only Brahman is real. And the perceiver of the material world is also illusory. The jiva thinks he is an individual, but actually he is also Brahman.
So in Vaishnava philosophy, we will say, no, the Supreme Lord is real, jivas are real, and material world is real. But the jiva has false conceptions about himself and about the material world. So that was already explained in the previous chapter. So these same concepts are explained here in terms of bondage and liberation. And here, the statement looks as if it is impersonal and the world doesn’t really exist, but that is not true.
So the example of a dream is given. So in a dream, we have an illusion of various objects and various actions. And of course, we wake up, then we say, oh, that was not real. However, the dream is based upon real objects, real events. And in a dream, we combine those objects and events in a different way from our waking state. But the objects themselves exist. So if you see a tiger in a dream, there is actually a tiger in the material world. The house in your dream, there is a house in the real. So therefore, we have illusions about the world, but that does not make the whole world illusory.
So the whole purpose of this is to understand the jiva in bondage. So in the state of bondage, we have this illusion about what the material world is. So our experiences of happiness and suffering in the material world are actually illusory because they are based upon a misconception of this world. So because of this, the nature of this material world, we have to get out of the material world, we have to reject this illusion. When we get liberated, material world does not disappear. The material world still exists, even if I get liberated, the material world is still there. And other people in this world will have illusory concepts of this world. So therefore, here when it talks about the material world not being real, it means that our conception of it is not the real, proper vision of the world.
So what is unreal? What is the illusion? One is, I think I am a material body. Second, I can get enjoyment for this material body by sense objects. And then in doing so, I develop this happiness and distress, lamentation, etc. So this is what we call bondage of the jiva. So it is a state of the jiva when the jiva is in ignorance, in illusion. So the essential nature of the jiva in a liberated or a bondage state is the same. He is always a jiva, an atma. He is eternal. Conscious. He knows things. He experiences things. He has an identity, I. So that is constant, either in liberation or in bondage. However, in the state of bondage, these characteristics get somewhat distorted. Then the jiva thinks he is the body and the body is not eternal. Because the body suffers, he thinks I am suffering.
So these are the various illusions of the jiva in bondage. So all these conceptions are not real, they are misconceptions. Because the self actually is eternal, not temporary. Our conceptions of self and our conceptions of the world, conceptions of happiness are all unreal. When the jiva gets liberated, then they understand real nature of self. And the jiva understands the real nature of the world. The material world is unconscious, very different from the jiva. Therefore, the jiva rejects it. So this knowledge is required by the jiva in order to go from the bondage state to the liberated state. And that is why the scriptures emphasize that one should get knowledge. By knowledge, then we destroy all of these misconceptions. Okay.
Hare Krishna!
Q & A :
1.) Maharaj, the nature of the Lord being so merciful, on one side, it appears for a jiva to identify with the body as one’s own self for millions and trillions of yugas and kalpas, it seems to be so easy. And to identify oneself as a spirit soul and direct on that platform seems to be not so easy and difficult then. Why is that?
Well, the jiva is ultimately dependent upon the Supreme Lord. When he acts independently, then he ends up in a very hopeless position. And everything becomes difficult. So it is difficult to survive in the material world. It’s also difficult to go beyond the material. However, if we surrender to the Lord, then it is no longer difficult. So this is stated in the Srimad Bhagavad Gita. Krishna says that, if you surrender unto Me, then you can cross over maya. But if you don’t surrender, then it’s impossible to get out of this bondage. So when we accept dependence upon the Lord, then everything becomes easy for the jiva.
2.) Mistaking a rope for snake is false. This suggests that the real snake exists. Can we understand the thinking material world as real pre-supposes existence of the spiritual world. Request you to explain.
We can use that argument if we accept the spiritual world. However, we can’t use that an argument if we don’t believe in the spiritual world.
3.) Is there a difference between spiritual body and soul in the spiritual world or not Maharaj?
Well, there is yes and no. It is like Supreme Lord and His cit shakti or internal energy. Energy is different, so we label it as hladini, samvit, sandhini shakti. At the same time, it’s non-different from the Lord. And so we also say the Lord is non-different from His body. So in the material world, the soul is definitely different from the body, because the soul is conscious and the body is unconscious. And in the spiritual world, everything emanates from the Lord’s cit shakti. So in that sense, the body is non-different from the self.
4.) Jiva can get out of material world by practicing bhakti, but we see that, there are a lot of difficulties even to practice bhakti. Why is it so, Maharaj?
The difficulties in performing bhakti are simply due to the strong attachments we have to material enjoyment. If that attachment to material things is very strong, then we cannot do bhakti at all. That is the 10th offense to the holy name. So when we have less attachment, then, that is a favorable situation for practicing bhakti. But one who has detachment to material enjoyment is not the cause of bhakti, it is simply a favorable situation. So the turning point is faith. And if the faith is very weak and the material desires are very strong, then bhakti becomes difficult. The stronger our faith, the more bhakti we do, the more material desires are destroyed. So then bhakti becomes easy. And material world becomes difficult.
5.) Maharaj, on the same topic, if the jiva, a sadhaka seems to apparently have faith, but still they are still attached to a lot of material things also, does it mean to understand that the faith is less or faith is there, still attachment is also parallely more?
Well, the deeper our faith and the stronger our bhakti, then the less material attachment is there. If the faith is weak, then the bhakti is also weak, and therefore, material attraction is strong. Of course, we have other causes for having a weaker material attraction. So if one practices nishkama karma yoga, or if one is a jnani, then one’s material attraction will also be less. And therefore, these would be favorable prerequisites for bhakti, because the bhakti could go on with difficulty, but less material.
6.) When the jiva attains prema in the material world, does the jiva has a material body and spiritual body simultaneously? When does the jiva then go to the spiritual world?
In prema, the jiva serves the Lord. Obviously, we cannot serve with the material body. But primarily, the devotee serves with his spiritual body. Simultaneously, he has a material body. But it is no longer an obstacle for him. But it also becomes unfunctional. Of course, the devotee can use material body also and perform devotional activities as we do in sadhana. However, that material body is a restriction on the jiva who’s developed prema. So at a certain point, then the jiva gives up that material body.
7.) A sadhaka bhakta chanting Lord’s holy names even in dream or dreams of the Lord’s pastimes, is that also illusory?
Well, anything concerning the Lord or the devotees or devotional service is not illusory. It’s part of the bhakti. However, in the stage of sadhana, we may have some illusory conception of the Supreme Lord or the devotees or devotional service.
8.) We have some cases of devotees unable to perform sadhana bhakti because they have too much sickness. How to understand this? What is the reason, Maharaj?
Well, of course, sickness and other difficulties are caused by previous karmas. However, those karmas do not prevent bhakti from operating. So bhakti is eternal. Even if you take another birth, the bhakti is not destroyed. Of course, if one had no bhakti, one can merely suffer one’s karmas. However, if one had some bhakti and one had got bad karma, one had a lifetime of suffering, the bhakti does not disappear. So there the bhakti will continue in spite of the suffering of the material body.
Devotees: Grantharaj Srimad Bhagavatam ki jai!!! HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj ki jai!!! Srila Prabhupada ki jai!!! Nitai Gaura premanande Hari Haribol!!!