Srimad Bhagavatam 5.24.1-2 | HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj | ISKCON Auckland | 17 March 2026
[Śrīla Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta Volume Two – CHAPTER FORTY-ONE – The Battle for Bombay]
When Mr. N. had seen the notice in the newspaper publicly advising that ISKCON had entered into an agreement for the Juhu property, he had become furious. Girirāja had gone to him with folded hands and bowed down before him, but Mr. N. would not be appeased. He had gone back on all his promises and had canceled the sales agreement, on the plea that the devotees had not obtained the deed within a six-month period. The two-lakh down payment, he had claimed, was now his, and the devotees should vacate the land immediately.
Mr. N. had shut off the water supply to Hare Krishna Land. Several days later, a hoodlum had shown up at the entrance to the property, brandishing a machete whenever devotees passed by. A friend of Mr. N. had printed a handbill ascribing scandalous behavior to the American Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees and was having it distributed at the nearby Vile Parle train station. Although a few devotees had left and others wanted to, about thirty devotees still remained in Bombay.
The first thing to do, Karandhara said, was to find a new lawyer, and he went to Bombay’s most prominent solicitors and hired a specialist in land transactions and conveyances. Next, the leading devotees and their solicitor met with Mr. N. in his office. Mr. N. was stubborn and uncooperative, and the ISKCON lawyer was threatening. A court battle seemed inevitable.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, Karandhara, Bhavānanda, and Śyāmasundara talked together, and the more they talked, the more they began to see the entire Juhu scheme as impossible. Even without Mr. N.’s treachery, just to live on the land was very difficult. The devotees and the Deities had such poor living facilities that the roof leaked and the cement floor was crumbling. Rats, flies, cockroaches, village dogs, and mosquitoes infested the place – with even an occasional poisonous snake. Devotees were always contracting tropical diseases, especially malaria and hepatitis.
So although ISKCON’s new lawyer was prepared to take the case to court, the devotees were hesitant. Mr. N. had said that they – not he – were criminals, because they had not gotten permission from the charity commissioner; they were on his land illegally. He said he would sue for damages. He even seemed to be on the verge of some violent action. Considering all angles, the leaders whom Prabhupāda had entrusted to solve the Juhu entanglement decided that ISKCON should relinquish the land. Drafting a joint letter to Śrīla Prabhupāda, they had Śyāmasundara hand-deliver it to him in Vṛndāvana.
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale
śrīmate bhaktivedānta-svāmin iti nāmine
namas te sārasvate deve gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe
nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe
jaya śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
Reading from Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 5 Chapter 24 Verse 1.
ŚB 5.24.1
śrī-śuka uvāca
adhastāt savitur yojanāyute svarbhānur nakṣatravac caratīty eke yo ’sāv amaratvaṁ grahatvaṁ cālabhata bhagavad-anukampayā svayam asurāpasadaḥ saiṁhikeyo hy atad-arhas tasya tāta janma karmāṇi copariṣṭād vakṣyāmaḥ.
Synonyms
śrī-śukaḥ uvāca — Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī said; adhastāt — below; savituḥ — the sun globe; yojana — a measurement equal to eight miles; ayute — ten thousand; svarbhānuḥ — the planet known as Rāhu; nakṣatra-vat — like one of the stars; carati — is rotating; iti — thus; eke — some who are learned in the Purāṇas; yaḥ — which; asau — that; amaratvam — a lifetime like those of the demigods; grahatvam — a position as one of the chief planets; ca — and; alabhata — obtained; bhagavat-anukampayā — by the compassion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; svayam — personally; asura-apasadaḥ — the lowest of the asuras; saiṁhikeyaḥ — being the son of Siṁhikā; hi — indeed; a-tat-arhaḥ — not qualified for that position; tasya — his; tāta — O my dear King; janma — birth; karmāṇi — activities; ca — also; upariṣṭāt — later; vakṣyāmaḥ — I shall explain.
Translation
Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī said: My dear King, some historians, the speakers of the Purāṇas, say that 10,000 yojanas [80,000 miles] below the sun is the planet known as Rāhu, which moves like one of the stars. The presiding deity of that planet, who is the son of Siṁhikā, is the most abominable of all asuras, but although he is completely unfit to assume the position of a demigod or planetary deity, he has achieved that position by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Later I shall speak further about him.
Text 2
Translation
The sun globe, which is a source of heat, extends for 10,000 yojanas [80,000 miles]. The moon extends for 20,000 yojanas [160,000 miles], and Rāhu extends for 30,000 yojanas [240,000 miles]. Formerly, when nectar was being distributed, Rāhu tried to create dissension between the sun and moon by interposing himself between them. Rāhu is inimical toward both the sun and the moon, and therefore he always tries to cover the sunshine and moonshine on the dark-moon day and full-moon night.
Purport
As stated herein, the sun extends for 10,000 yojanas, and the moon extends for twice that, or 20,000 yojanas. The word dvādaśa should be understood to mean twice as much as ten, or twenty. In the opinion of Vijayadhvaja, the extent of Rāhu should be twice that of the moon, or 40,000 yojanas. However to reconcile this apparent contradiction to the text of the Bhāgavatam, Vijayadhvaja cites the following quotation concerning Rāhu; rāhu-soma-ravīṇāṁ tu maṇḍalā dvi-guṇoktitām. This means that Rāhu is twice as large as the moon, which is twice as large as the sun. This is the conclusion of the commentator Vijayadhvaja.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj:
So, this is a description of subterranean and heavenly planets, but actually here we’re beginning with the sun and Rahu and the moon. Srimad Bhagavatam, in the fifth canto, is largely a discussion of the different planetary systems above and below the earth and a description of the Bhu-mandala, more or less in the center. Why we have this description is because living entities need places to live, and these have to be created at a certain point in time for the living entities. So, this creation takes place by the powers given to Brahma, and this is related to the description of the creation of the universe. So, in other words, the Bhagavatam is describing in order how creation of the universe takes place, and the reason this is taking place is because a Purana should discuss 10 topics, and the first topic is Sarga, second is Visarga, and the third is Sthana.
So, the first topic is called creation, how Maha Vishnu glances and activates prakrti to create all the material elements. Once the elements are created, they can form into universes, and then MahaVishnu expands into Garbhodakasayi Vishnu within each universe, and Garbhodakasayi Vishnu does not directly create, but He empowers Brahma, who arises from His navel, to carry out creation of bodies of living entities and the places for the living entities.
So, the second topic of Bhagavatam is Visarga, which is the secondary creation, how Brahma creates living entities, not the Jivas, but the bodies for living entities, which they assume, they assume these different bodies according to previous karma. So, after the destruction of everything, including prakrti, the Jivas remain within the universe, but they still have their karma. And then, when Maha Vishnu creates again, these Jivas enter into the universe according to their karma and take up bodies created by Lord Brahma. So, that’s the second topic. These two topics are described, basically in the third and fourth cantos of Bhagavatam.
But, the living entities need a place to stay. So, where do they stay? In different places. So, Brahma creates places for them, and thus we have the fifth canto describing Sthana or Sthiti, the places where the living entities reside. And because of their karmas, some will be in upper planets like devatas, others on lower planets like the demons, whatever, and some in the middle sector, according to their karma. So, this is what is discussed here in the fifth canto, the different planetary systems within the universe, which the various bodies of living entities in habitat due to their karma.
So, a lot of the previous subject was the upper planetary systems and the Bhu-mandala and Jambudwipa etc. And now we just give the description of below. Of course, below, in one sense, means actually below the sun, because the sun is the center, exact center. There’s so many yojanas, so many below, and the sun is in the center. So, we have the sun, and then, of course and the sun of course is considered to be part of swarga, along with the other planets, like mercury, the moon, etc. They’re all in the swarga sphere. And then, below that, we will have the, what we call the antariksha, space, and below that, the Bhu-mandala. And below Bhu-mandala, then, in the crust of Bhu-mandala, you get the lower planetary systems. Just as on earth, we have earth, and then people dig up gold and things below the earth, and they carve out all these tunnels, etc. So, the lower planetary systems below the earth are something like big caves within the earth, one after the other, going down deeper and deeper and deeper [Laughs], until you hit the bottom of the crust. After that there is space again, and then there is the Garbhodaka ocean at the bottom, held up by Ananta Sesha.
So, that is the total structure of everything, of the whole universe. And why? Its because the living enters needs places to stay. So, those who are very pious, and punyas, or situated in sattva, they are in the upper planetary systems. Those who are mainly rajasic are in the middle, that is the earthly planet, Bhu-mandala and those who are tamasic, are in the lower planetary systems. This chapter is called Subterranean Heavenly Planets. So, subterranean means below the earth. So, they are below, in the sense that, physically below the earth, in the earth’s crust, whereas the humans are on the top of the crust [Laughs]. The demons are below the crust, so they’re subterranean. But, they are described as heavenly planets.
So, normally you think of all these planets as hellish, and whatever and full of people screaming and tortures, etc. But, that’s not so. One portion, of course, is like that. That’s Yamaraja’s place, patala-loka. But the other places above that are not. They are heavenly planets, in one sense, because the demons get enjoyment. They enjoy very nicely in these places. We may ask, how can they enjoy when they’re just living in caves, or whatever like that? And, the answer is that, it’s not so much the cave idea, but they get all sorts of enjoyments there. They live nice, long lifespans, and they can enjoy with their senses like anything [Laughs]. And, they have their own sources of light, even though it is dark, or whatever. But, they are placed in this lower position, because of their nature which is tamasic. So, tamasic enjoyment, places of tamasic enjoyment, for your [Not clear] much.
So, all the living entities are placed in these different positions, because of their karma, which means previous activities, with their previous desires. So, they get what they deserve. So, those who do tamasic activities, end up in tamasic places. Those who do rajasic activities, are on the earth. Those who do sattvic activities, are in heavenly planets. So, Brahma creates all of these places for the living entities.
So, the goal of all of this, is to show that the Lord fulfills the desires of the Jivas, in the material world, to enjoy as they please, according to their different gunas. And, to do that, he gives them bodies suitable for that enjoyment, and places suitable for that enjoyment. So, why because the Jivas are individuals, they have their individual desires. So, the Lord helps them fulfill those desires, and gives them different types of bodies. This applies to everyone in the material world. Why the living entities here? Because, they want to enjoy, using material senses, to enjoy material sense objects. That’s why [Laughs]. And, they can enjoy in sattva guna, rajo guna, or tamo guna. And, though we have three gunas, these mix together in different ways, and we get countless varieties of sattva, raja and tamas. And thus, we got all sorts of bodies, all sorts of places, for that type of enjoyment. And so, in this way, we get a rather complex structure of the universe.
The whole intention of describing all of this, is to show that there is intention, and plan, behind the whole universe. It is not a big bang, as modern science thinks. And then, we get scattered gases, forming into galaxies and then galaxies by chance forming into suns, and planets, etc. And then, of course, we have the theory of evolution, that gases get together, and then chemicals get together, and they form amino acids, which form into proteins, and whatever, and form into cells [Laughs]. Eventually, we get human beings, and other forms of life. So, that’s a chance theory. But, Bhagavatam says, no, the whole thing is planned out by the Supreme Lord. And, there are two distinct categories here. Matter, which can do nothing on its own, and therefore, requires the intervention of the Lord, in the form of Maha Vishnu glancing. And without Him consenting, nothing in prakrti moves. So, there is no big bang, there’s no combinations of things, there’s no formations of galaxies, unless the Lord says, let it happen. So, when the Lord makes it happen, it happens. When He says, it’s not going to happen, it doesn’t happen. So, but, this happens regularly. Maha Vishnu breathes out and glances, everything is created. Maha Vishnu breathes in, everything is destroyed. Maha Vishnu breathes out everything, He creates everything again. It’s destroyed again. So, it is more or less, a regular schedule of creation and destruction. But, it cannot happen, unless the Lord will’s it to. Unless He breathes in and out, unless He says let there be creation, it will not take place.
So, not only is it by the will of the Lord that everything happens, but everything after the Lord says, let it be created, is also under the control of the Supreme Lord. But, also, it’s not that the Lord has to individually intervene with every combination of elements, etc. After the Lord says, make it happen, everything seems to evolve according to plan [Laughs]. So, once the Lord gives the energy to the universe to manifest, it manifests in a certain order, from the subtle to gross, etc. And then, I think we have all the elements there. But, they don’t just start by chance combining and suddenly produce cells and evolution, etc [Laughs]. But, the Lord gives that job to Lord Brahma. And, with His intelligence, He can make all the bodies for all of the living entities.
To make one little cell body, actually, is quite difficult. And, even if we calculate the life of the universe, or life of, let’s say, the Earth planet, how long Earth has been around, just to create a little, simple, wiggly amoeba, or something [Laughs], is almost impossible, by chance, to create within the whole life of our Earth planet. So, formation of life is actually a very complex process with many factors involved, and it requires great intelligence. So, the Lord empowers Lord Brahma to do all of this. To create the cells that form together, and form living entities, and to form more complex entities, etc. So, again, it is through intelligence that the bodies of living entities form. And, it is not by chance that we get these different planets. It’s all created by the Supreme Lord, and He puts these living entities on certain planets, and all according to their karma.
So, this is the discussion of how the Lord interacts with matter to create bodies and planets, or living entities. But, the living entities are completely different from the matter, whether it is bodies, or planets. These are not created. The Jivas, the atmas, are not created by the Lord. They are eternal. But, the Lord supplies them with bodies, places, etc. Why? Because the living entities want them. So, the Lord fulfills their desire, and creates universes, and creates places, and creates bodies, through the agency of Maha Vishnu, Garbhodakasayi Vishnu and Brahma. So, a large part of the Bhagavatam, up to this fifth canto, is concerned with this creation, etc., all the planetary systems, and whatever. And then, the cantos after that are concerned with the activities of the living entities, particularly the human beings, within this system, and how they interact.
And, the purpose of all of that is to show that, even at that stage, after the Lord has arranged for the places, and the living entities to interact, even then, everything is under the control of the Lord [Laughs]. So, we’ve got the days of Brahma, the nights of Brahma, and there’s a creation and destruction. And this goes on for Brahma’s 100 years. Besides that, within the day of Brahma, even time is under the Lord’s control. So, we get the cycles of yugas, 1000 times within one day of Brahma, where again, there is creation, destruction, creation, destruction, going on. And all of this, again, planned out by the Supreme Lord. So, in this way, we have different types of creation and destruction going on. And then, even within that, within each yuga and cycle, we have creation and destruction going on with the bodies of the living entities, because living entities do not last forever. So, within the day of Brahma, most living entities are created and destroyed so many times, individual bodies.
So, we have a universe which is operating under the control of the Lord, and the time cycles are under the control of the Lord, with repeated creation and destruction. So, not by chance, or whatever. And all because living entities have desire to enjoy in the material world. And the counter-principle behind this is that living entities desire to enjoy in the material world, and they do not desire to recognize the Lord and serve the Lord eternally in the spiritual world [Laughs]. So, they prefer to stay here. This is the nature of the Jiva. Not all Jivas, but the Jivas in the material world, their free will is intact, and they choose to stay in the material world. So, these Jivas are called bahir-mukha, which means, they turn outwards [Laughs], facing material energy. Some Jivas are opposite. They’re facing the Supreme Lord and they’re in the spiritual world. Some are facing outward and stuck in the material world. That’s their choice.
The Lord, however, though, in one sense, is indifferent to the material world, because He is absorbed in His pastimes in the spiritual world, and He expands as Maha Vishnu and others to take care of the material world. In that sense, He is indifferent to the material world, but He’s not indifferent to the Jivas in the material world. And thus, He makes plans for them to give them some choice and education. So, throughout the Bhagavatam, especially from the sixth canto onward, we have the Lord giving opportunities to the Jiva to give up their attachment to material energy and get into the spiritual world to serve the Lord [Laughs].
So, how does the Lord do that? Of course, we have the process of devotional service. We have all sorts of knowledge. Of course, the other systems of karma yoga, jnana yoga, astanga yoga are there, as well as bhakti yoga, all to benefit the Jiva and help to progress towards getting out of the material world. So, the Lord supplies the processes, including holy name which is discussed in the sixth canto with the description of Ajamila chanting he name of Narayana, even accidentally, when he’s a big demon, sinful person. So, we get the processes. We get, of course, devotees there to inform people about spiritual lives. So, even in this chapter, we get a part of this canto, we get the description of Jada Bharat teaching Rahugana, etc. So, we have devotees preaching the scriptures and giving us different processes. We have great sages, of course, always preaching in the material world. So, we have Narada Muni coming and [Laughs] giving instructions on bhakti. We have, besides the devotees, then we do have the Lord Himself coming. So, we have avatars coming and also giving instructions. So, we have Hamsa, Varaha and others and Narasimha Dev, Rama, Krishna coming, and they give nice instructions to the living entities and give inspiration.
So, not only the Lord has devotees in the material world to spread the process of bhakti, He has personally come into the material world as avatar, to help deliver the souls of this material world. Besides that, He also has His appointed governors [Laughs], we can say the Manus. So, the Manus are appointed and empowered by the Supreme Lord to institute dharma and bhakti and they will preside along with the descendants for 71 yuga cycles each.
So, we have 14 Manus in one day of Brahma, each spanning 71 yuga cycles, and they preside over that, and they help govern the human beings, and establish the processes of bhakti and dharma. So, this is another way in which the Lord guides and protects the living entities, particularly the human beings. So, in this way, we have the Lord Himself as an avatar coming, we have the devotees coming, we have the Manus appointed by the Supreme Lord, and the descendants appointed to institute dharma and bhakti. The Lord also empowers the devatas and the sages to carry out work to preserve the universe and protect the devotees, etc.
So, these are the ways in which the Lord expresses His concern for the Jivas in the material world. So, He doesn’t leave them, He is always there offering the opportunity to uplift themselves. At the same time, the Lord does not force the Jivas, He gives them the opportunity. So, even though the Lord appears as avatar, it’s not that all the Jivas immediately surrender to the Supreme Lord. They don’t. Some do, some don’t [Laughs]. So, therefore, the Lord has to appear constantly. So, within one day of Brahma, we have the yuga avatars. So, there are a thousand yugas. So, four thousand times in one day of Brahma, the Lord comes as avatar to deliver. Plus, He also comes as all the lila avatars at that time, and shaktyavesa avatars to deliver the Jivas. But in spite of that, not all the Jivas accept the Lord. Most refuse [Laughs]. So, it’s not the Lord’s fault. The Lord is giving opportunities, Jivas don’t want to take. Of course, some take, and they are very fortunate. Others don’t take. They remain here. So, they remain throughout Brahma’s day, the next day, the next day, the next day, the next day, the next day. In spite of the Lord manifesting Himself so many times. But that’s the extent of the Lord’s mercy upon the Jivas in the material world. He can do so much. And these are the ways in which He does it.
So, He does not abandon them. But it is up to the Jivas themselves, particularly human beings, to make that choice. And those who choose become fortunate, and then they get a place in the spiritual world eternally. So, in this way, the nature of the Jiva, which is the tatastha or borderline, puts the Jiva in the material world, but it also allows some choice to get out of the material world. So, in this way, the Jiva should take advantage of his position as a Jiva, as tatastha shakti and ultimately choose the Supreme Lord.
So, the whole purpose of scripture and Bhagavatam is to inspire the Jivas to leave this material world and surrender to the Lord. So, it provides opportunity, at the same time it doesn’t force the Jivas one way or the other. Unfortunately, there’s also maybe too many scriptures [Laughs], which becomes a little confusing. Of course, there’s religions all around the world, but if you would take Vedic scriptures, there’d be too many scriptures. So, we get four Vedas, we get, each Veda has its parts, like you know the Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishads and Samhita, the Vedas have Angas, six Angas, like [Not clear] etc Jyotish, etc. Apart from that then we have the Sutras, Brhad Sutras or whatever, Dharma Sutras. And then, besides that, we have non-Vedic literature, such as the Smriti Sastras, which are about 19 or so. And besides that, we get, of course, works like Mahabharata and Ramayana, Itihasas. We also get 18 major Puranas, 18 minor Puranas, we get 108 Pancharatras. So, we’ve got a lot of scriptures to deal with [Laughs]. So, which is maybe the Lord’s mercy, but at the same time, it’s a little confusing for us, Jivas. So, to simplify everything, Vedavyasa wrote Srimad Bhagavatam. So we have one scripture, and no one can complain [Laughs]. So instead of having too many scriptures, we have one scripture, Bhagavatam [Laughs]. So, this summarizes everything in the Vedas into one work. And, it presents the final conclusion of everything.
As I said, the Puranas deal with ten subjects. And these, this is one subject, the planets. This is third subject, Stithi or Sthana [Not clear]. The most important subject of all, of course, is the tenth subject, Asraya, which means the shelter or the cause of everything. That, of course, is Supreme Lord. But, Srimad Bhagavatam is unique because not only does it delineate the Supreme Lord, Bhagavan, as the ultimate cause of everything, but it doesn’t say, does makes Krishna as the Supreme form of Bhagavan. So, it’s a little bit special. Not only does it summarize the Vedic literatures, but it also points out the hierarchy and then the final object of worship, and that is Krishna.
But, most of the Bhagavatam is not about Krishna. It’s about Rahu and Ketu and the sun, as we see here [Laughs] and 80,000 miles up or whatever, across, or whatever, so many yojanas instead [Laughs], and breadth or whatever, dealing with all these details. So, we have to go to the tenth canto to get the majority of information about Krishna [Laughs]. So, all this other information is also there, because it is a Purana and should discuss everything. But, the whole goal of all of these other subjects is to show how they are related to Krishna, ultimately.
So, if all these planetary systems are under the, created by Brahma, and Brahma is created by Garbhodakasayi Vishnu, who’s manifested from Maha Vishnu who glances, etc. Maha Vishnu, of course, is not the end. Beyond Maha Vishnu is spiritual world, in the spiritual world, ultimately, we get Vishnu forms and Avatar forms and finally we get Krishna. So, He is the final, final, final cause of everything [Laughs]. So, that’s the whole idea [Laughs] that we have all of this here. And, it should be recognized as part of the Lord, but at the same time, above this is, ultimately, Krishna at the top.
So, that’s how we should understand the Bhagavatam, all in relation to Krishna. So, we have the description of all of these planets, upper, lower, and middle, etc to illustrate that the universe is quite complex and it is planned out by the Supreme Lord exactly according to His plan, to accommodate all the Jivas with all their karmas. And that’s the reason why it’s all here [Laughs]. So, it’s ultimately a reflection of the intelligence of the Supreme Lord in the form of Krishna, inspite of the fact that He has nothing to do with anything and He’s simply engaged in His pastimes in the spiritual world.
Okay, any question there?
Q & A :
1.) Question [Not clearly audible].
Why we can’t see Mount Meru? Okay, well [Laughs] if we look at the descriptions of Mount Meru, Mount Meru is bigger than what we call our Earth at the present time, which is how many, 3,000 miles in diameter or something, whatever it is. The Mount Meru is like huge [Laughs]. It’s bigger than the [Laughs] little Earth here, this is Mount Meru, the little Earth at the bottom, like a little pebble at the bottom of Mount Meru. So, obviously, describing Mount Meru and even, of course, the upper planetary systems and whatever, or even the mountain ranges on our Jambudwipa, which was described previously are, they also very, very high. So, all of this is quite, and, of course, Jambudwipa is much bigger than our Earth also [Laughs]. So, all of this is something which is puzzling to us in the modern world, particularly, because we want to start categorizing everything into this, like the sun is here, moon is here, all this. It doesn’t quite make sense. Science tries to do it in one way, you know, with their descriptions.
Bhagavatam does it in a different way, which is completely contradictory to what modern logic and science tell us. And then we have these strange dimensions and this Mount Meru that nobody can see etc, that doesn’t seem functional at all, because it’s an upside down mountain [Laughs]. The top is bigger than the bottom [Laughs]. So, it doesn’t, it look so different. But we will see that this concept with Mount Meru in the middle, with dwipas around and the plane, is common to not only the Vedic scriptures, but Buddhism accepts it also. Jains also accept it. And if we look in other cultures of the world, to some extent they do, like the Norse, Norse mythology up in Norway and Sweden [Laughs], they do have a big mountain in the middle. If you look at the North American Indians, also they got a similar structure. So, it’s kind of a common theme around the world, who have a central pivot there, and then you have the, you know, things around, like the oceans and the dwipas etc. So, it’s not just the Bhagavatam is doing this.
But then what is it? And what is this huge mountain in the middle or whatever, which we can’t see [Laughs]? So, why we can’t see it, of course, is another thing. But we, of course, are limited in our perception also. We can’t even see what’s inside our body, so we have to use x-rays or whatever to get inside, or modern sonic, whatever it is [Laughs], vibrations, see what’s in your body, whatever. But that’s very gross. We don’t see our subtle body. We don’t see our chakras. And our subtle body is subtle also, and it’s got all these different layers, just like this body has. We don’t know anything about that at all, even. And we can’t even detect it, what to speak of, you know or describe it in detail. So, even that, our own body, we can’t describe completely. So, what to speak about, what we perceive of as just the Earth planet and its structure [Laughs]. We got our conception of the modern time. It’s not the only way to look at the Earth.
So, if a yogi looks at the Earth, not with this vision, but with his own advanced vision, we don’t have to say spiritual, but let’s say advanced material vision. If he’s in his astral body or whatever [Laughs], the yogi’s traveling to another planet or whatever, he looks at Earth, he will not see the same Earth that you know that the astronaut sees from a spaceship. It’s [Laughs] something completely different [Laughs], because even the astronauts are still looking at the Earth in a certain way. And even our instruments are looking at it in a certain way. But if you get out of the gross material body and you’re seeing with your subtle eye and your subtle vision, subtle perception, it’s quite different from what we see in this gross world.
So, in other words, what is presented in Bhagavatam is probably a vision from a higher, let’s say, a higher material vision than our present gross [Laughs] material vision gives us, which is quite limited. So, therefore, it’s just another vision of the world. It’s not ultimate, because, again, it’s still material, but it’s at least a more subtle material vision of what things look like. We see in three dimensions and we analyze everything in three dimensions at the present time, but that’s not necessarily the only way you can look at the universe. I think even primitive people sometimes don’t think in our three dimensions at all [Laughs]. They have different dimensions as well. And so, you know, things can be presented in different ways that don’t quite match our vision. And then we tend to think of it as imaginary or fairy tales or mythology or whatever like that. But that’s just our modern prejudice, limiting things to our rational way we see the world.
2.) The Srimad Bhagavatam says get out of material world [Not clear]. So, why present something which is abstract or out of the constitution of these finite things that are not able to be comprehended by the limited.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: That means this canto particularly?
Devotee: Yeah, in order to know how to write, rather than to try and invent it.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, yeah, well, yeah.
Devotee: [Not audible].
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, okay. Well, what people comprehend is different in different ages. So, a thousand years ago or 3,000 years ago, even 500 years ago, when people read Bhagavatam, they didn’t think it was puzzling when they [Laughs] read the fifth canto. In fact, all of our Acharyas are simply commenting upon, they don’t say why it’s like that, they simply comment, okay, this is the river of ghee or the ocean of ghee, and it’s so wide like this. And they’re not saying, how can you have such a big expanse of ghee or sugar water or yogurt or whatever [Laughs] have oceans of it? They’re just describing it, and everybody has simply accepted that, and they’re not saying why.
So, it’s only in the modern world with us that we think, how can we have a yogurt ocean, and how do you get the cows to fill it up and make it go sour, and how do you get rid of the old milk and [Laughs] the milk ocean when it starts going bad [Laughs]? Who boils up all the milk to make the ghee to go into the ghee ocean [Laughs]? So, we have all these little questions that come up to us, or as he says, Mount Meru and where is it, how come we can’t see it, whatever. They didn’t think like that, even 500 years ago. So, we see even our devotees are going through all the different commentaries to figure out the fifth canto but they’re all saying the same thing. They’re just describing what’s in the Bhagavatam [Laughs], the different dimensions, etc, and they’re not questioning at all.
So, in other words, their view of the world is quite different, that’s all. It doesn’t mean that therefore it was limited, because we’ll find even before all of this, even the astronomers 2,000 years ago or so, were discussing the earth with a modern conception also, like Aryabhatta. So, he explains a spherical earth and how it rotates like this, and we get eclipses with the shadow of the earth on the moon or whatever, to create the eclipse of the moon. They were discussing things like this also, but they didn’t reject this also. So, therefore, their minds were quite flexible and different from our minds in the modern world, where we just have one view of things.
Devotee: From Bhagavatam, does the Earth look round [Not audible]?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, so that’s our modern conception. When we read this, then we say, okay, it looks like it’s flat, and there’s a thing like this in the middle, and that’s true, but then our modern conception is, no, that’s not right, because it’s round, spherical, and turning around like this, and the whole Bhagavatam is about how everything’s going around Mount Meru instead [Laughs]. It’s not that the earth is revolving, but Mount Meru is in the middle, and Bhu-mandala is here, and then all the planets are going around like that. So, it looks quite different in one sense. But, as I said, this is only perceptual. We can perceive in one way or the other, we can perceive flat, or curved, or whatever, according to how we want to look at it. That’s all.
Devotee: [Not audible].
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, it seems to be, from our modern point of view, it seems to be flattish, because we have a Bhu-mandala, who’s kind of in the center, and it’s like that. So, it’s like that, more or less, with Mount Meru sticking out the middle. That’s our conclusion. So, yeah, in one sense, but then it looks, from our point of view, again, if we’re thinking of modern things, it doesn’t look possible, because, you know, we don’t see Mount Meru sticking out somewhere [Laughs] around us, and we don’t see these oceans around us, and whatever, and if you go up in a spaceship, you don’t see all that, or whatever. So, then we say, okay, it’s a mythology, or something like that. But what I’m saying is, we’re not seeing the whole of the world, anyway [Laughs]. We can’t even see our subtle body. So, not only we have subtle bodies, there’s subtle elements, there’s so many subtle things out there we don’t know about.
And even, even science itself, they say, okay, universe is made up of matter, but then, according to the theory of science, most of the matter is there, but we don’t even know how it exists, because it’s what they call black matter, which means they don’t know, and that’s like 95% of the whole universe is something we don’t know about, even though it exists [Laughs]. So, they have no conception of what it is. So, therefore, we’re quite limited in knowledge of our own universe and its structure, etc.
Okay, fine.
Hare Krishna.
Devotees: Grantharaj Srimad Bhagavatam ki jai!!! HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj ki jai!!! His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada ki jai!!! Nitai Gaura premanande Hari Haribol!!!