Srimad Bhagavatam 5.24.9-14 | HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj | ISKCON Auckland | 20 March 2026
jaya rādhā-mādhava kuñja-vihārī
gopījana-vallabha giri-vara-dhārī
yaśodā-nandana vraja-jana-rañjana
yamunā-tīra-vana-cārī
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
Jaya Prabhupāda Jaya Prabhupāda
Prabhupāda Jaya Prabhupāda
Reading from Śrīla Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta Volume Two CHAPTER FORTY-ONE – The Battle for Bombay.
“No one would buy his medicine,” Prabhupāda continued, “so he became anxious. Still he tried, and one day a man approached him in his shop and asked if he had any Beecham’s Powder, and in excitement that someone had asked for his medicine, he died. Similarly, better we spend our whole life and die just to make one person Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our line, to become so absorbed in preaching Kṛṣṇa, whether in Vṛndāvana or anywhere. We must save all these asuras from destroying the world.”
In stressing active service and practical results, Śrīla Prabhupāda was exactly following the teaching and example of his spiritual master. According to Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, to chant in a secluded place and not preach was “a cheating process.” Devotional service meant practical work for Kṛṣṇa. The simple, positive way to control the senses was to engage them fully in the service of Kṛṣṇa. Active service was the topmost yoga, Prabhupāda told Subala, a fact that he had repeatedly explained in his books. In the recently published Second Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he had written,
Here it is clearly mentioned that the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana were extensively busy in the hard labor of their day’s work, and due to the day’s hard labor they were engaged in sound sleep at night. So practically they had very little time to devote to meditation or to the other paraphernalia of spiritual activities. But factually they were engaged in the highest spiritual activities only. Everything done by them was spiritualized because everything was dovetailed in their relationship with Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. The central point of activities was Kṛṣṇa, and as such the so-called activities in the material world were saturated with spiritual potency. That is the advantage of the way of bhakti-yoga. One should discharge one’s duty on Lord Kṛṣṇa’s behalf, and all one’s actions will be saturated with Kṛṣṇa thought, the highest pattern of trance in spiritual realization.
As far as possible, Prabhupāda engaged each disciple in a certain service according to the particular disciple’s psychophysical nature. But everyone had to take up some kind of work for Kṛṣṇa. Since Prabhupāda desired to build a temple in Vṛndāvana, then whoever would help him do it, whether they were trained or not, or whether it was their tendency or not – whoever offered him assistance – would become very dear to him and to Lord Kṛṣṇa.
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale
śrīmate bhaktivedānta-svāmin iti nāmine
namas te sārasvate deve gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe
nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe
jaya śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
Reading from Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 5 Chapter 24 Verse 9.
ŚB 5.24.9
yeṣu mahārāja mayena māyāvinā vinirmitāḥ puro nānā-maṇi-pravara-praveka-viracita-vicitra-bhavana-prākāra-gopura-sabhā-caitya-catvarāyatanādibhir nāgāsura-mithuna-pārāvata-śuka-sārikākīrṇa-kṛtrima-bhūmibhir vivareśvara-gṛhottamaiḥ samalaṅkṛtāś cakāsati.
Synonyms
yeṣu — in those lower planetary systems; mahā-rāja — O my dear King; mayena — by the demon named Maya; māyā-vinā — possessing advanced knowledge in the construction of material comforts; vinirmitāḥ — constructed; puraḥ — cities; nānā-maṇi-pravara — of valuable gems; praveka — with excellent; viracita — constructed; vicitra — wonderful; bhavana — houses; prākāra — walls; gopura — gates; sabhā — legislative meeting rooms; caitya — temples; catvara — schools; āyatana-ādibhiḥ — with hotels or recreation halls and so on; nāga — of living entities with snakelike bodies; asura — of demons, or godless persons; mithuna — by couples; pārāvata — pigeons; śuka — parrots; sārikā — mynas; ākīrṇa — crowded; kṛtrima — artificial; bhūmibhiḥ — possessing areas; vivara-īśvara — of the leaders of the planets; gṛha-uttamaiḥ — with first-class houses; samalaṅkṛtāḥ — decorated; cakāsati — shine magnificently.
Translation
My dear King, in the imitation heavens known as bila-svarga there is a great demon named Maya Dānava, who is an expert artist and architect. He has constructed many brilliantly decorated cities. There are many wonderful houses, walls, gates, assembly houses, temples, yards and temple compounds, as well as many hotels serving as residential quarters for foreigners. The houses for the leaders of these planets are constructed with the most valuable jewels, and they are always crowded with living entities known as Nāgas and Asuras, as well as many pigeons, parrots and similar birds. All in all, these imitation heavenly cities are most beautifully situated and attractively decorated.
Text 10
Translation
The parks and gardens in the artificial heavens surpass in beauty those of the upper heavenly planets. The trees in those gardens, embraced by creepers, bend with a heavy burden of twigs with fruits and flowers, and therefore they appear extraordinarily beautiful. That beauty could attract anyone and make his mind fully blossom in the pleasure of sense gratification. There are many lakes and reservoirs with clear, transparent water, agitated by jumping fish and decorated with many flowers such as lilies, kuvalayas, kahlāras and blue and red lotuses. Pairs of cakravākas and many other water birds nest in the lakes and always enjoy in a happy mood, making sweet, pleasing vibrations that are very satisfying and conducive to enjoyment of the senses.
Text 11
Translation
Since there is no sunshine in those subterranean planets, time is not divided into days and nights, and consequently fear produced by time does not exist.
Text 12
Translation
Many great serpents reside there with gems on their hoods, and the effulgence of these gems dissipates the darkness in all directions.
Text 13
Translation
Since the residents of these planets drink and bathe in juices and elixirs made from wonderful herbs, they are freed from all anxieties and physical diseases. They have no experience of grey hair, wrinkles or invalidity, their bodily lusters do not fade, their perspiration does not cause a bad smell, and they are not troubled by fatigue or by lack of energy or enthusiasm due to old age.
Text 14
Translation
They live very auspiciously and do not fear death from anything but death’s established time, which is the effulgence of the Sudarśana cakra of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Purport
This is the defect of material existence. Everything in the subterranean heavens is very nicely arranged. There are well situated residential quarters, there is a pleasing atmosphere, and there are no bodily inconveniences or mental anxieties, but nevertheless those who live there have to take another birth according to karma. Persons whose minds are dull cannot understand this defect of a materialistic civilization aiming at material comforts. One may make his living conditions very pleasing for the senses, but despite all favorable conditions, one must in due course of time meet death. The members of a demoniac civilization endeavor to make their living conditions very comfortable, but they cannot check death. The influence of the Sudarśana cakra will not allow their so-called material happiness to endure.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj:
So, we have a whole description of the subterranean heavenly planets, filled with all sorts of pleasurable items, wonderful buildings, wonderful gardens, wonderful flowers and birds and things, so it looks very, very attractive. And we see that the people there do not age, they don’t get old, they seem to be young all the time, so this looks like an ideal place, and that’s why it’s called Svarga. But it’s also called Bila Svarga, and Bila means a hole, so because it’s beneath the earth, the sun does not shine there, so it’s completely dark.
This also has one advantage, because since there’s no real day and night caused by the sun, people forget about time passing [Laughs], so in this way they enjoy very nicely. In this description in the fifth canto, we see that the sun is the very center, vertically it’s in the center, horizontally it’s in the center of the universe, and it extends its rays upwards, downwards, horizontally, up to a certain point. And it’s within this area that we get all the dwipas and the varshas, etc and Bhu-mandala and we get the upper planetary systems etc. And it’s within this range that the living entities get their enjoyment with all the sunlight. After that, there’s a big mountain range, a local-local mountain range, and after that, it goes so high, no sunlight can get past because it’s higher than the sun.
And then that other part of the universe, which is half the universe is completely black [Laughs], and there’s nothing there, completely devoid of life. So life really exists within that wall, that huge circular wall, local-local mountain range, where the sun shines. And so the living entities take advantage of this and they are living and dying and whatever within this range. And then we have below the earth, where there is no sunlight. It was described here, the sun was there, the moon was there, the sun was there, Rahu was there, and then we have the siddhas and the charanas and the ghosts and the rakshasas, the Antarikshas here, the 800 miles going up, and then we have Bhu-mandala [Laughs]. And after that, no sunshine below that. Yet we have all these layers under the earth where these demons live.
But, this planet, or this universe is such that everybody thinks they’re enjoying. So even though this hole, little bit less than half the universe [Laughs] is composed of the demons [Laughs], and these holes, which means there’s plenty of them, as I said, the sun is in the middle, and then there’s a short period where there’s space there, and then there’s earth in it, and all the rest is the demons [Laughs]. So they make up half the, almost half the universe, except for the, you know, the Garbhodaka ocean below. But they make a considerable amount of universe, and all these demons down there. And they’re all enjoying, even though there is no sunlight.
So, this material universe is constructed in such a way that everybody gets their enjoyment in all sorts of indescribable conditions [Laughs]. From the darkness down at the bottom to the light of the earth area, and then the effulgence of the upper layers of the universe. Unfortunately, everybody dies, as explained in this verse. So whether it is the people down here, in the hellish regions that experience the death due to the Sudarsana Chakra, or whether they’re in upper planetary systems, everybody has to experience this, the death produced by the Sudarsana Chakra of the Supreme Lord.
So, in other words, whatever happiness we have in the material world is relative. And we can get enjoyment in various places. We have the example of, you know, Indra becomes a pig and enjoys very nicely as a pig [Laughs]. But actually, he belongs to upper planetary system. But he falls into this illusion, and then he becomes a pig, and he enjoys very nicely as a pig. So the living entities adapt to their particular bodies, and their particular condition in a particular loka and then they enjoy. So we should never consider one place better than the other ultimately. Of course, from the descriptive point of view, these are the lowest planets and then the Svarga and upward are the upper planets. So we would think, well, let’s go to the upper planets rather than the lower planets. We see here, the lower planets are just the same. They get more enjoyment, they get better [Laughs] facilities [Laughs] than upper planets. More and more beauty, more everything. So the idea of what is the best place to enjoy is relative, because everybody gets their enjoyment somewhere, no matter where. Even if they’re in darkness, in the lower spheres, in tamo-guna or whatever, they enjoy very nicely.
So, nevertheless, everybody dies also. So, the idea of happiness in the material world is a relative concept. It’s relative for human beings, it’s relative for other people. I don’t get as much enjoyment as that person, so I have to strive to get that enjoyment. Or, I don’t get enough enjoyment in this country, I’ve got to go to that country. So people go to different countries to get their enjoyment. And then something happens and, you know, they suffer also. So we make all these plans in the material world for greater material enjoyment. It ultimately has to fail. Of course, due to good karma, we can continue for our life, but ultimately it fails because you die and then it’s finished.
So, the intelligent person has to understand this. There are various ways in which we can come, arrive at this understanding that the material world is rather useless. One is by experience. Birth after birth, we experience this and sooner or later, hopefully, we get tired of it. And we say, what’s the use of all of this [Laughs]? And the other method, of course, is to develop one’s intelligence, birth after birth, and end up in sattva-guna. And when we get to sattva-guna, we naturally become detached. And we get a little glimpse of the truth in the form of understanding we’re not the body, we’re the atma. So even though the material world is a big trap, within that trap of the material world, we have sattva-guna, which allows us to get out of the material world. So it’s a little like a secret door, you can get out of the material world even though you’re in it [Laughs]. Like in the prison, a little secret door is there, you can escape [Laughs]. So if you get to sattva-guna, there’s a little escape door there, you can get out [Laughs]. So that’s one built-in escape route produced by the Supreme Lord.
So we don’t, we can’t blame the Lord at all. He has given us this place, and because people like it, then they enjoy the prison whatever, according to their propensities. And Lord supplies everything there for them. But the condition is, they have to be born and they have to die. And then they get shifted from one place to another according to their karma [Laughs]. So it has some inconvenience in it. So here the demons are enjoying very nicely, they have to accept death. They also have to accept that due to their karmas, they may get a worse body. Not in Bila Svarga, there may be an animal or a plant. They may be in Patala Loka getting punishment. So everything is mixed for the living entities.
And it’s not only for the demons. The devatas fall from their position, come back to earth, or maybe fall lower also. We see king Nrga ended up as a lizard [Laughs]. Even though he’s doing so many pious activities. So the whole material world actually, though it’s planned very nicely by the Supreme Lord, due to the karma of the living entities caused by their own decisions and their own actions, which are subject to mistake, they end up wandering all over the place. They may have a plan. The plans don’t work out all the time. And then they suffer, as king Nrga had to do. He had a nice plan of doing pious activities. They end up suffering and becoming a lizard [Laughs]. So it’s a rather uncertain place, this whole material world. And nevertheless, the Lord also gives opportunity for escape by sattva-guna.
So the whole point of this description in the fifth canto of all these different places is to show the great variety of places which are necessary because different Jivas have different desires. And in these different places, they get their enjoyment. Somehow or other, they get some satisfaction out of these different places. Why the different places? Because different people have different natures due to their different karmas and vasanas. And the whole thing ultimately is useless [Laughs].
So we have in the third canto, Maha Vishnu glances over prakriti and this manifests all of the material elements that form into universes. And then all of this is created within the universe. And then He breathes in, it’s all destroyed. So within that one second of the Lord, when He breathes in and breathes out, we have these universes in the whole life of Brahma and all of these living entities going through repeated birth and death [Laughs] throughout the life of Brahma, which is a few seconds for Maha Vishnu. So on not only this scale, we see how it is useless because everybody is born and dies and they go up and down in the material world but the whole planet is useless because everything gets destroyed at the end [Laughs]. The whole structure that Brahma has so nicely created is also destroyed. All the bodies are destroyed. Everything dissolves into prakriti and becomes invisible. So in this way, the whole manifestation of the Lord is shown to be useless because it’s perishable. And of course it just says this world is perishable, all other worlds, all universes are perishable. And it happens within a few seconds of the Lord’s time. So the message we get is we should not become too absorbed in material life. And instead we should strive to get something better than that.
Unfortunately, it is very difficult for the human being to understand what to get and how to get it. All of our endeavors for determining our goal and then getting it is material goal and a material means. And we may succeed, we may not succeed, but we keep trying. So to get beyond determining material goals is very difficult for the human being. And that is why the Lord supplies the scriptures to us, so we get higher information. So unless we accept the scriptures, we don’t have a clue about what our goal is and how to achieve that goal.
So we do have to accept the authority of the scriptures. And when we read the scriptures, we get a clear understanding of the nature of this material world. It will confirm any knowledge we get by experience. It will confirm any speculation we have about the uselessness of the material world. We’ll get confirmation of all that in the Srimad Bhagavatam. And descriptions like this are there to convince us [Laughs] of the temporary nature of the material world. And when we get that information, then we become inspired to do something about it. So then we inquire what is the goal, and the scripture gives us the goal and gives us the means to achieve the goal.
So, as Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, the scriptures actually teach three things. Sambandha, Abhidheya, and Prayojana. So Sambandha is the knowledge, as here we are getting all this knowledge about what constitutes material world. How the Jivas are there and whatever. How the Supreme Lord is throwing the Sudarsana Chakra here, destroying [Laughs] everything. All this is part of the Sambandha, to show us, okay, these are the facts. This is what reality is. This is what real existence is. That’s the Sambandha.
And then the question is, well, it looks like a pretty hopeless place. What are we supposed to do? What is our goal as a human being? So that’s the Prayojana. Now the Prayojana, of course, is different for different people in the scriptures. So we have Svarga loka, get out of the hellish existence, go to Svarga loka, for people who are materialistic. For people who are more advanced, we get liberation. For people who are most fortunate, they go and serve Krishna in the spiritual world [Laughs]. So we get various goals for various persons, but the intelligent person will see the highest goal, what’s the best goal, so that we determine the goal. Once we determine the goal, then we have a means to get to the goal. So to get to Krishna, we have Bhakti Yoga. If we want liberation, we have Jnana Yoga. If we want Svarga loka, we have Karma Yoga.
So the scripture is dealing with Sambandha, Abhidheya, Prayojana. And all three topics are necessary. We need knowledge of all three in order to advance in spiritual life. If we don’t know what’s what, then we would have no conviction to do anything. We just sit here in the material world [Laughs]. So we have a lot of the scripture dealing with all of the, what is the material world, how useless it is, etc. And what is matter, what is Jiva, who is the Supreme Lord etc. That’s necessary, otherwise we can’t take the next step and understand what our goal is and become convinced of it. So, that knowledge is necessary.
And that is why we have large sections of the Bhagavatam [Laughs] dedicated to describing this material world [Laughs]. How it’s constituted in this whole section. One canto is dedicated to describing all the places that the living entities try to enjoy. So, we need the necessary information. We also need to determine the goal of all of this. Now, of course, we say the goal is Krishna Prema. But then, Krishna Prema also is a little bit abstract for us. So, it’s just a name. So we need some more information about that goal. But because it is spiritual, not material, people will say, well, you can’t really describe it, because it is spiritual and it’s not subject to material words. That is true. And scripture also says that [Laughs].
The Lord is beyond mind and words and whatever. You cannot approach Him by speculation or by descriptions. However, scripture is different. It’s not normal words. So, scriptures can describe the ultimate goal. They can describe the Supreme Lord. Why? Because they’re non-different from the Lord. Of course, then you can say, well, how can we understand the scripture if it’s all spiritual, we’re are materialistic? Answer is qualification. If you are qualified by a little Bhakti, then you can understand [Laughs]. If you don’t have any Bhakti, no, then you’re not qualified. If you have a little Bhakti, you can begin to access the spiritual nature of the scriptures that describe Krishna Prema.
So, that Krishna Prema is described when we have descriptions of Krishna performing His various pastimes. And so, in the tenth canto, it’s all about Krishna and His pastimes. Of course, the pastimes themselves consist of Krishna interacting with His devotees. So, He’s interacting with Mother Yasoda or Nanda Maharaj or the Cowherd Boys or the Gopis. And what is the whole, why all this happens, why there are pastimes, is because there’s an experience of bliss in Prema for Krishna and for the devotee. So, through the pastimes, the description of the pastimes, we can understand to a small degree, what is that Prema. Even though we don’t, we can’t experience it if we’re not qualified for it. But, by those descriptions, we get some idea. So, at least we know which direction to go in. And, of course, the more we advance in our bhakti, the more understanding we will get of Prema itself, as we read the scriptures.
So, the scripture is capable of conveying the goal to us. So, very important. And, once we understand the goal, we get an impetus to attain that goal. If we don’t have an impetus for the goal, we won’t be very much interested in the practice. So, sometimes parents are very enthusiastic when they raise their children and say, you have to be a doctor. And, so then, yeah, doctor, very nice, you know, high position in society, lots of money, whatever [Laughs], easy life [Laughs] whatever. And, then the child says, I don’t want to be a doctor, whatever. And they can describe everything about the doctor. Still they’re not attracted to it. So, another child, of course, they hear about the doctor and whatever. And, the parents describe all the advantages. They describe how a doctor is very compassionate. He saves people’s lives and whatever like this. You know, and people are grateful to him. So, that person becomes interested in, then being a doctor and he’ll start thinking about it. And, then maybe start reading more about it like that. And, then he becomes very enthusiastic. So, the more he knows about it, all the details of what a doctor means. It’s not just a title. Then, the more enthusiastic he has to attain that goal and become a doctor.
So, similarly, the scripture gives us description of the pastimes of the Lord. And, through that, we understand what Prema is. Then we get a little inspiration to attain that goal of being like the devotees in the spiritual world having similar experiences they have in relation to Krishna. So, therefore, we get an understanding of the goal, based on that we get inspiration to follow the practice. As just as the child will be inspired to study because he has an interest in becoming a doctor.
So, in this way, we have the basic information given to us. We get the goal in the form of Krishna’s pastimes with Prema. And, then we have the method which is Bhakti Yoga described in Bhagavatam. And, with all that, then we can carry out the practice. So, scripture is very necessary to get all that information. And, thus, we have, in our movement, over many modern movements [Laughs] great emphasis upon scripture.
Of course, we cannot say it’s unique to our Sampradaya. All of the authorized Sampradayas have a great emphasis on scripture [Laughs]. All the Acharyas write books [Laughs]. And, this establishes that particular Sampradaya. Because of the books and the knowledge it presents, which define Sambandha, Abhidheya, and Prayojana. And modern movements, many spiritual movements, they have no books at all [Laughs]. No Sambandha, no Abhidheya, no Prayojana [Laughs] really. Nothing authoritative. So, the Lord Caitanya’s movement, though it is supposed to be very spontaneous, and you know, filled with Bhakti, etc, it also has a great stress upon authority of scripture. And, that’s why we have books like Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita and Caitanya Caritamrta.
Okay. Any question there?
Q & A :
1.) Maharaj, [Not clear] that residing on subterranean heavenly planet [Not clear] from the Earth planet [Not clear].
Well, they can get there from various places. Just as, on Earth planet, they may come from Svargaloka [Laughs]. But not all of them come from Svargaloka. Some were previously on the Earth etc. Some may be advancing from even hellish planets upwards like that. So, and, those who are on upper planets, they could come from our sphere, they could come from the Gandharva sphere above the Earth. In some cases, they could come even from lower planetary systems [Laughs]. Because not everybody is demonic there.
For instance, we have, you know, Prahlada is in asura family, he comes from asura family. He’s a devotee. Same with Bali. Bali’s down there now, even with Vamana Dev on Sutala Loka. But, he’s a great devotee of the Lord. So, various types of people in various places. And, of course, Yamaraja is a great devotee also [Laughs]. He’s on the Patala Loka [Laughs]. But, anyway, the demons themselves, they’re obviously there because of a lot of tamoguna. But, some may be there for a long time because they like it.
Just as people stay on Earth planet, and they just continue Earth, they don’t go up, they don’t go down [Laughs]. They do enough punya to stay on the Earth, but not enough sin to go down. And these people down there, they’re doing activities to keep them in that position and, they’re very attached to it, so they stay there also. So, they may follow that position, or they may stay in that position. Or, they could advance from Patala Loka to Sutala Loka [Laughs], maybe [Laughs]. Like that also. So, it’s various according to their actions and according to their desires and their attachments.
2.) Thank you Maharaj for the class. My question is about opulence. It’s described for the subterranean is very opulent. So, how is it in the Vaikuntha opulence is different from these. Is there any specific difference?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Vaikuntha?
Devotee: Yeah.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, everything here is subject to the destruction of [Laughs] the Sudarsana Chakra and time. So, looks very good, but its constitution is material, which is completely acit, unconscious. And, their bodies are also the same, all subject to destruction. Temporary destruction for the lifespan and then, of course, the big destruction with the whole universe when it gets destroyed and Maha Vishnu breathes in. So, it’s all in that way, destructible. And, it is also very different from the atma or the Jivas who are there because matter is one thing and Jiva is different, it’s conscious. So, even though there’s a belief that one is enjoying, ultimately the Jiva is very different from all this matter and all this, what we call enjoyment, whatever, material happiness. So, it’s very different actually from the Jiva’s nature.
Spiritual world may from our point of view, looks very similar in one sense. But its constitution is not acit at all. It’s not matter. It’s spiritual substance. And, it’s all eternal. It’s never destroyed. Here, of course, they think they’re indestructible because they don’t get old, they don’t have [Laughs] diseases or whatever. But, they do die ultimately. And the bodies are brought away, like everybody’s bodies. So, in spiritual world, it’s all spiritual substance that is eternal. So, nothing decays. They don’t have to, you know, take special elixirs and herbs to keep [Laughs] them young [Laughs]. Their bodies are naturally spiritual, naturally eternal, they don’t get old, they don’t die. And, those bodies are non-different from the Jivas who are there. Because, Jiva is spiritual, body is spiritual, it’s one. And, so, those bodies are very natural for them. They’re not different from their substance. And, of course, everything spiritual is full of bliss. So, naturally, everything is blissful by nature. They don’t strive for that bliss at all.
3.) Another one is that one more time thing. That time in Vaikuntha, it’s eternal. But, still there are pastimes happening. So, how does it work? Is the same day repeats everytime?
So, yeah. Time, when we usually speak of time or kala, this is an aspect of material world. It is mind. It is not substance, like prakriti is substance, but very subtle. You have such grosser substances like water, air, ether etc. And then we get our visible universe, which is very gross. But, it’s all matter. There’s another part of maya, which is not matter [Laughs]. So, that is time and karma. They don’t exist in spiritual world, they exist in material world. And, of course, time is an invisible force that keeps things moving. And, things are created and destroyed within time.
So, it’s an aspect of the material world. So, that time can never be there in the spiritual world. That destructive time of past, present, future. But then we will think, well, there’s no time there. Everybody’s just like this. They’re all paralyzed, things like you know. What is it? We call it the diorama [Laughs]. Pastimes in diorama form. They’re just stuck there in a picture form like that. But that’s also not there. We see they are in pastimes. And, it looks like there is time.
So, yes, there is a spiritual time. So, Krishna gets up every morning. And He takes a bath. And Mother Yasoda dresses Him and cooks for Him and feeds Him and He goes out. So, there’s a day and a night. How is it different? It’s different because that time is subservient to the pastimes of Krishna and only serves Krishna for His pastimes. So, within that day and the night, and whatever and the seasons that follow, and one another, it’s all at the will of Krishna. So, within one day, you can have all seasons, for instance, by the will of Krishna for a certain pastime [Laughs]. Time can expand, time can contract. The Rasa-lila lasts for a few hours of the night. But if Krishna wants, He can extend that for a lifetime, a night time of Brahma [Laughs]. So, Krishna uses time in the spiritual world to facilitate His pastimes. So, there is a sense of time. But it’s completely not material time at the same time.
4.) Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita said that a person who actually worships His form for a longer period of time [Not clear] material activities. So, how is that? Basically, they’re dividing up so much devotional service. So, what is the traditional interest?
Well, you can see that devotional service is a process and it goes through different stages by which, we reduce our anarthas. We go through anartha-nivritti and we reduce the material tendencies gradually, gradually, gradually. But just as when we grow a plant, if you’re very attentive, an expert gardener, the plant will grow very nicely. It grows up pretty quickly. You know, like farmers [Laughs]. We’ll see that their crops are growing very nicely. They’re good farmers whatever. But, then we have people who don’t know how to grow things. So, a bad gardener, or an inattentive gardener, not really interested in it, will find his fields are all messy and things aren’t growing, there’s weeds there and whatever [Laughs], all overgrown. And, he doesn’t get much result from this endeavor, even though he is a gardener, or whatever.
So, in devotional service, also, some people are more attentive, they have the proper process, they get the proper knowledge, so they can grow the creeper of bhakti very nicely, and it grows up nicely. Other people, maybe not so interested, maybe they don’t have the knowledge, or whatever, maybe they get influenced, and they commit aparadhas, so then the plant doesn’t grow nicely. If it stops growing, or decreases, this becomes dangerous, because the person loses the taste for bhakti and then he may stop it completely.
Just like some people, they do the farming, and they say, I’m getting no result, so then they stop [Laughs]. They sell their farm and go out and do something else instead. So, same with devotees. However, as Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita, nothing is lost, whatever you have done, somehow that will continue in your next life, next life. It’s not exhausted by your lifetimes in this world, whatever bhakti you have done.
The only condition there is that, if you commit aparadhas, then yes, that can destroy the bhakti, or decrease it. But if it’s due to our, we’re doing it, but due to negligence, we can’t continue, we lose the taste that way, then whatever we’ve done is with us, it’s to our credit, next life, next life. It doesn’t just get destroyed, it’s in all the different births in the future.
5.) Maharaj, just a follow-up question on prabhu’s question. With the different stages of bhakti that we have, is there prescribed duties for each level to progressively move up? So, for example, like, you know, from Bhajana-kriya etc, to Nishtha, Ruchi, Asakti etc, is there a step-by-step process in terms of actions that one should perform?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Different actions?
Devotee: Yeah, like I guess, is it a systematic approach, or is it not a systematic approach, but it’s dependent on external factors like mercy, etc?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So we have these different stages of bhakti, which are actually measuring two things. One is the destruction of anarthas, and secondly, more important, is the increase in bhakti [Laughs]. So we start with our bhakti seed, eventually it becomes prema. And in that process, we start with a lot of anarthas, and gradually they go down to nil, zero, when we have prema. So we’re getting gradual destruction of anarthas, and gradually increase of prema to maximum. So basically, it’s a measurement of bhakti and the destruction of the counter things. So, in the different stages, we’re actually doing the same bhakti, the same processes, the same watering [Laughs], etc. Whenever we care for the little plant, we do the same thing when it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and same conditions help it grow. So therefore, we do have the same actions of bhakti, hearing, chanting, remembering, devotee association etc. All these continue. The only difference will be that how we do them may be slightly different. They don’t change into something else, but they may be different. Or, we may emphasize one type of bhakti over the other as we mature. For instance, if you are doing a bhakti at a certain stage, you may switch to Raganuga, and when you switch to Raganuga bhakti, then the internal sadhana becomes more prominent. So we have, remembrance, smarana becomes more prominent than it is in Vaidhi bhakti. So that becomes more prominent. So the internal cultivation may take over at a certain point. Even if you are not doing Raganuga, even in Vaidhi bhakti, at a certain point, the internal element also becomes very prominent. Because obviously, if you get to Bhava, through Vaidhi bhakti, Bhava itself is an experience of the Lord, the sthayi bhava, which is not external at all. It’s a feeling [Laughs]. So therefore, the emotional aspect becomes more prominent there even in Vaidhi bhakti and becomes more spontaneous. So there is some difference there between that person and a person in the lower stage, who may concentrate on the externals more. So in that way, we can say that gradually, a person, as he advances, may go more internal and emphasize that more. It doesn’t mean he rejects the external, because generally, devotees do both. But he may become more absorbed in internal as he goes higher and higher.
6.) Thank you Maharaj. Maharaj, also in relation to the spiritual world, and you were mentioning about time, in terms of how time is subservient to the pastimes of the Lord, is there also, like, in terms of activities that we do in this material world, like eating and sleeping, for example, is there such a thing as eating, spiritual eating and spiritual sleeping in the spiritual world, for the pastimes of the Lord? Because the soul obviously doesn’t need to eat or sleep. But in order for the pastime to happen, there must be some eating and sleeping in terms of the spiritual sense.
So in the Upanishad, it talks about the qualities of the person in the spiritual world. One of them is, there’s no hunger, no thirst [Laughs] like that, no death, etc. So in that sense, there’s no hunger and thirst, so there’s no eating in that sense that you have to eat to keep your stomach full because you’re uncomfortable or your stomach’s not full, or you have to eat because you’ve got to get nourishment otherwise your body dies, that’s not there. So we can say that for all the senses, we’re using our senses in order to survive in this world. In the spiritual world, that’s not necessary [Laughs]. So actually everything is used in relation to Krishna and serving Krishna. So even the eating and the sleeping and seeing or whatever somehow it’s all related to the service of Krishna in those different pastimes. So in that sense, we can say they’re all necessary in one sense because they’re intrinsic to the different pastimes. So therefore, we see that Krishna gets up in the morning and bathes, and then Mother Yasoda feeds Him and He eats [Laughs]. And all the devotees also eat [Laughs] and whatever like that. But that’s also, this is part of arrangement for their pastimes. So eating is part of their pastimes. And in those pastimes, and they interchange, we have these different exchanges, rasa, etc. So the eating and sleeping and whatever is all part of the structure of the pastimes to increase bliss.
7.) And are there spiritual activities that are not seen in this material world, that happen in the spiritual world?
Well, of course, in the material world, if we’re a devotee, then our activities are considered to be spiritual, hearing, chanting, remembering whatever. But of course we also, we have our contaminations in our mind which weaken the whole process. If one gets to prema, then we can say the influence of material nature is going to be minimized and absent completely. However, we do have a material body, which is also a restriction. So it is said that even if we have prema in the material world, that Jiva, who has developed a spiritual body, is limited by the material body to some degree. So, you cannot experience before [Not clear] of higher levels of prema like pranaya and raga, anuraga etc. It’s very limited with this body, so we cannot experience, so there’s some slight difference there.
8.) [Not clear] experiencing, understanding, etc. So what does it mean if there’s a person who can learn through hearing and one who has to experience? It’s often argued that one who has to hear is experienced already.
So experience, of course, is probably the basis for just accepting as hearing. In previous [Laughs] lifetimes, we had experience, in this lifetime when we hear about it, that we accept it without having to experience it again. So probably experience is the basis of everything. Unfortunately, experiences also it’s there, it’s makes it necessary, but it also, the Jiva takes, needs a lot of experience to learn anything [Laughs]. So that’s why we’re born in the material world because we don’t learn from our experience one time and we have to repeat it again and again and again in the material world. So we’re very slow learners from our experience [Laughs]. So once we do have some experiences, then we can absorb it and learn from it, then we don’t have to have the experience again. So just by hearing about it, we get the memory of that, this is bad, I don’t like this, or whatever. So then we don’t have the experience again, we just go on and we have other experiences that take us to a higher position.
9.) I have a couple of brief questions. The first one where Markadeya Rishi [Not clear]. One is about the side of the and the exposure to the water. It comes across what is described as crucial as a baby. So, when you get something, everything’s okay, breathed out. That pastime is quite hard to understand, it’s a little bit abstract, but it’s really maybe it’s made an astronomical sort of thing.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, so it’s explained as being like a vision. He gets this vision because he wanted such a thing that it’s not that it actually happened, it wasn’t, but he gets this vision and he actually experiences it, that’s all. And within that he sees the form of Krishna. But then we see that, that form is not considered as a separate avatar at all. [Not clear] Material world and it is within his vision he saw. So it’s all a vision helping to give him some experience of the temporary nature of the material world.
Devotee: So, from that pastime he starts to understand the picture of angels.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah.
10.) The other thing was to remind Carlisle to describe that the robin is flying around people [Not clear] He sees the house planetary systems and all the computers functioning with different living entities. But then as he keeps flying, he sees that there’s no change in location or almost short distances. He ends up seeing people experiencing vast pleasures which sounds like absolutely such a great thing. So it seems like there’s no obvious change in scene, like in scenery actually, if you’re driving by Auckland to Wellington. He sees punishment of living entities and then he sees everything else. So, I’m wondering how you make sense of that.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well of course, people get punished where we have Yamaraj is also described in other places that where Yamaraj resides is actually a very nice place [Laughs]. But the place next to that is where they get all the punishment and whatever. So he’s doing the punishment but then where he lives is very nice. It’s like Svargaloka also. So perhaps that’s where he’s right next to the hellish place. The prison. Outside the prison and then inside the prison so to speak [Laughs].
Devotee: You can compare perhaps a little bit to some people who are living in New Zealand or Hawaii and other people who have been in Iran or Iraq which is always a lot of places but it’s all the same environment.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: We’re all in the same world [Laughs]. Same planet, same Bharata varsha [Laughs]. Different sections [Laughs].
11.) I have to describe in a translation that maya danava built a beautiful place and there are guest houses. Who are the guests [Laughs]? Who are the people that make it beautiful and nice?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, obviously these places are as big that they’re like each planetary system is as big as wide as Bhu-mandala. So, you can travel around these places all over the place just like we travel over Bhu-mandala and go to different dwipas and go to different varshas and Bharata varsha etc. So, these places are also very vast so when people could travel from one place to another even within one loka, what to speak of going from one loka to the next it’s possible to do that.
Devotee: We can travel from one planet to another.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah.
12.) [Not clearly audible].
I haven’t seen it in any of the scriptures nor in the commentaries also. But probably it’s a common story that’s told by Prabhupada sometimes. But it’s a good illustration, obviously, that you’re one day in Svargaloka and the next day you’re not in Svargaloka [Laughs] and you’re down somewhere else in the material world because everybody falls from that eventually when they exhaust their pious activities anyway.
13.) So, the Bhagavatam describes various hellish planets corresponding to specific sinful actions. If someone performs many different sins do they undergo multiple punishments in different planets or do they go to just one?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah. Yeah. So, for different sins you get different hellish punishments, yeah [Laughs]. So, the more different types of sins you do, the more different types of punishments you can get [Laughs]. So, some are because of stealing or whatever like that. So then you get that punishment but then you may kill somebody and get a different punishment for that. You get all sorts of punishments.
Devotee: So, is it all on one planet or you could be moving from one planet to another.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, these are different. I don’t know if they’re one planet or not but they’re different sections of the hellish region.
14.) Since there is law of karma to meet out justice, why are there also hellish planets for punishment?
Yeah. So, we get the karma and then you get a different body but then there’s also people who do extreme activities so for that, they get the hellish punishments. Plus, then after that they get the karma [Laughs]. Whatever karma is, they get a body, a different body for that.
15.) In Bhagavatam it says that when the Jiva descends to the material world our first position is Lord Brahma and from there we degrade further and further to other life forms. But, from my understanding, Lord Brahma and the residence on Brahmaloka who get liberated at the end of the cosmic annihilation. So how does a Jiva as Lord Brahma become entangled further in material world since the post of Lord Brahma can only be taken up by a devotee or the Supreme Lord Himself.
Yeah. It’s also said that usually Brahma gets liberated after that and goes to the spiritual world because he’s a great devotee of the Lord [Laughs]. And even the residents may go with him like that. So, that’s one thing in one place in the Bhagavatam, maybe two places, but I looked in the commentaries, I didn’t find any reference there also, so I don’t know how it got there and what is the actual explanation. It could be some sort of grammatical editing that happened and that’s how it ended up, rather than say simply that Brahma is the first living entity that progress from that [Not clear] if that was actually [Laughs] Prabhupada’s dictation or not, so it’s a little bit contradictory.
16.) In Krishna book, when Narada Muni is visiting Krishna in His various palaces, it is mentioned that Krishna was engaged in economic development because householders need to increase their financial assets. Could you please explain what that practically refers to? What was His role?
Yeah, well, as Krishna in Dwaraka is playing the role of a grhasta and also as a kshatriya and therefore according to normal duties, then He has certain activities He has to do every day. It’s described that He gets up in the morning and He does sacrifices and meditates. He gives charity. So these are the activities prescribed by dharma sastras for a king. So He does all those activities. But, of course, Krishna doesn’t got a material body, doesn’t have to support Himself or whatever [Laughs]. And He’s got a spiritual body. All of this He’s doing as a pastime. And part of the pastime is to illustrate for other people how a normal grhasta or a normal king or kshatriya should act, that’s all. He also acts as an ideal king. He doesn’t have to act as a king at all because He’s a spiritual but He acts like a king and carries out duties like a king. This is simply to, part of the pastime, part to teach people how to act in this material world.
17.) In Bhagavatam we hear all the stories of great personalities, demons, etc. And it seems that they all take place in other loka or planetary systems but these places are also present on earth. For example, the pillar that Lord Narasimha appeared is in a place called Ahobilam in south India. So did all these pastimes happen in other lokas or did they all happen on earth?
It depends. Some of the pastimes are on earth, some are in other places. And we can’t really tell from the descriptions of Bhagavatam where it is and it doesn’t really say, so we don’t know [Laughs]. But obviously some are specific like Vamana is born in Svarga, so it’s not on earth planet at all. It’s definitely there. And they can have pastimes in both places also, some of the avatars. So Vamana is there, plus He’s also down in Sutala loka [Laughs]. He has pastimes and He dwells there right now. Of course He’s also the Manvantara avatar and He stays there for 71 yuga cycles. So the avatars can have various places of where they live or where they do pastimes as well. Some are located in one place.
18.) I think by reading Bhagavatam that Yamaraj resides in Pluto.
[Laughs] Pluto is not a Vedic planet [Laughs]. I think Pluto in the sense means Pluto is in the Greek mythology is the lord of death. Yeah. So basically Yamaraj means Pluto in that sense [Laughs].
Devotees: Grantharaj Srimad Bhagavatam ki jai!!! HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj ki jai!!! Srila Prabhupada ki jai!!! Nitai Gaura Premanande Hari Haribol!!!