Siksha & Diksha

Lecture on Siksha & Diksha | HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj | ISKCON Sri Namahatta Nottingham | 04 July 2026

nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale
śrīmate bhaktivedānta-svāmin iti nāmine
namas te sārasvate deve gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe
nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe

jaya śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda

Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj:

So, also, that has to be, it may not be there in the scripture itself, and then we have someone explain that to us. So, in this way, there’s, since ancient times, there was that type of dependency just to get the information, explanation. Apart from that, of course, the emphasis has always been on personal interaction. And that you can’t just learn things by some mechanical means. Maybe, to some extent, you can get material knowledge that way. But even material knowledge also, to some degree, you do have to get some personal instruction.

So, if you want to be a carpenter, you can learn things from a book or whatever. But if you get a nice carpenter, he can give you some nice tips so [Laughs] that you can do it nicely [Laughs] and expertly. So, usually, any expert, woodworker, carpenter, or whatever, sculptor, wood, whatever, he will have some teacher. Who has personally taught him some things.

If you want to be a good painter or sculptor or whatever, then you go to someone who’s well-known for doing that. So, for instance, in Italy, in the Renaissance, they had some famous painter. So, if you want to be a good painter, you go to that painter and learn from him rather than experiment on your own. So, all of these different expert painters had people that were their teachers. And they learned so much from them.

So, the idea of a teacher, apart from whatever theory is there and whatever scripture is there, is there. And they give you practical information. But that’s, of course, material. So, spiritually speaking, there is this other factor and that is realization. And in our case, devotion. And we say that without devotion, you cannot understand scripture. So, without devotion, whoever speaks to you also is not speaking anything [Laughs]. So, they have to have devotion. So, if we hear from a Vaishnava, fine. If we hear from a non-Vaishnava, it’s all poisoned [Laughs]. So, that also we can say that the realization and the faith of the speaker is necessary to transmit the proper spirit of the scripture, apart from all the other things that you can do. So, therefore, in this sense, maybe that’s the most important part of what the guru does.

So, fortunately, a lot of the meaning and, let’s say, the details of how to perform bhakti, etc., if they are not there in the scripture itself, they are explained through the commentaries. So, we do have in our Sampradaya, many commentaries available. Rupa Goswami has written commentaries, Jiva Goswami, Sanatana Goswami has written commentaries. Then we have later on, we have Vishwanath Cakravarti involved. Those who are writing commentaries, particularly on Bhagavatam.

So, in this way, it makes it a little easier. And the  we could say, well, then we don’t need the guru because we got that. But, as I said, you do need the personal person plus the devotional aspect there. So, you can read all the commentaries. But if you’re not a devotee and you don’t have a devotee instructor, you come out with a different meaning [Laughs]. So, just like the scripture itself, even the commentary is subject to the same criteria. So, if it is spoken by a person with devotion, then you will get better meaning to it.

So, in this way, the idea of guru is necessary even in the modern age. Though we’re not dependent upon oral instruction completely, and we have all sorts of communication methods and recording and everything like that, instant printed work etc., still, the necessity is there. Because it has to come through a devotee, and there are details which are not explained even in the commentaries or whatever.

So, therefore, that’s why in spite of the technology of the modern world, we still have a necessity of guru. So, if we look in Bhagavatam, we will see that, it is always a matter of question and answer. The sages of Naimisaranya asking Suta Goswami. Pariksit asking Sukadeva Goswami [Laughs]. And, of course, within the Bhagavatam, then we get questions and answers. And we have Uddhava asking questions, Krishna giving answers. If we go to Vishnu Purana, we have Maitreya asking questions and Parasara muni giving answers.

So, we find that the main aspect here is that one person is there as the guru, and he’s giving knowledge to another person. So, he becomes the siksha guru. So, that is quite obvious through the Bhagavatam that one person is teaching and one is receiving. Therefore, we have a guru-disciple relationship. So, that is, we can say, the primary function of the guru, to impart knowledge of scripture to disciple. And because you have to go through guru, and if you want to learn the scripture and advance in devotional service, then we have to give proper respect to the guru. Respect itself, of course, is also, we could say, nicely defined and codified [Laughs] in the scripture.

So, what does respect consist of? And there are all sorts of formalities involved in that, such as don’t step on the guru’s shadow or [Laughs] whatever [Laughs]. Don’t sleep on his bed. So, there are all sorts of you know, rules we have for that. But ultimately, the main aspect is, and of course, offer respects. But more important than the physical aspect is the mental aspect, which means obedience [Laughs]. So, of course, all these other things are there to get that obedience, all the physical manifestations of rules are there.

But to manifest that obedience in the mind, what does that obedience mean? That is expressed when we use the word pranipat. As we say in Bhagavad Gita, you approach the guru with pranipat, pariprasna, and seva. So, pranipat. Pat means to fall, nipat means to fall down, which means down the ground [Laughs], and pra means extremely, which ultimately, of course, physically, we can say pranamas are there, but in the mental sense, we can say surrender.

So, what this means is that, in approaching for knowledge, we have to admit we don’t have any knowledge, that we are ignorant. And therefore, we depend on another person to give it. And to do that, then we have to have this humble attitude of being ignorant and fallen. And so that is what the pranipat is. And then the guru speaks, and then we’re ready to accept it. If we are proud, that means we think we know already.

So, what is the use of the guru teaching [Laughs]? If you think you already know it, and he says, I already know all that, so you’re never going to learn anything [Laughs]. So, therefore, that pranipat is necessary, and that is, of course, worship and everything is one aspect of that. And so we do guru pujas and things, so ultimately, it’s only for that, to give the respect and to understand that we are in a fallen position. And therefore, we take the knowledge coming downwards. Just like water flows downwards [Laughs], naturally [Laughs]. So knowledge also goes downwards like that [Laughs].

That’s the method of receiving knowledge, like the water falling down. So, very necessary. And of course, the peer or the disciple has to be qualified, one, by the obedience and humility, etc. And secondly, by pariprasna, questioning, thorough questioning. Pari means thorough or absolute [Laughs]. So he has to thoroughly question. And we’ll see, for instance, in the different works in the Bhagavatam, the sages begin by asking questions, six questions they ask. So that’s their questions, and Bhagavatam is the answer to that. Similarly, in Vishnu Purana, Maitreya asks all these questions, I think he asks 26 questions and then [Laughs] Parasara muni begins to reply, and that becomes that Purana.

So, the disciple also has to be qualified with the desire to know about that particular subject. If he’s going for guru for spiritual knowledge, then he has to be inquisitive about getting knowledge by which he can attain the goal. One has to have that desire for knowledge. If we don’t have a desire for knowledge, we don’t get knowledge. So we have to have a desire. So as well as the humility, you can be very humble, but if you don’t want to learn anything [Laughs], it’s still not a good disciple [Laughs]. Should be eager for the knowledge [Laughs], which means you ask the right questions. So therefore, that pariprasna is also important.

The third thing mentioned in Bhagavad Gita is Seva. So Seva, of course, means we are physically doing things to help the guru. So part of that is the expression of the pranipat, that we are obedient, etc., so therefore willing to serve. The more esoteric part, of course, is that we’re willing to follow the instructions. So whatever teachings are given by guru, then we’re willing to implement them. So knowledge of scripture consists of several things. One is the philosophical aspect, but that’s not complete in itself.

So we need to define a goal, which, of course, is supported by the philosophy. And then we have to have a process to get to the goal, which is the abhidheya. And that consists of action, so it is no longer theoretical. So we have to do things based on scripture. In karma mimamsa philosophy, they say that the main import of scripture is action. You are ordered to do things, and you should follow that [Laughs].

So this is, we can say, one aspect of the scriptures, along with the philosophy. It is ordering us to do certain things. So, therefore, action is necessary. So we learn the scripture. As a result of that, then we should do something [Laughs]. So the guru instructs the scripture, then we have to start implementing that. So that is, we can say, the more esoteric part of the service. So, in this way, the disciple is qualified, because he is inquisitive, he’s willing to follow the instructions properly, and he’s willing to accept all the knowledge. So that makes a good disciple.

As I said, the guru has to be qualified by his devotion [Laughs]. If he’s not a devotee, a Vaishnava, then what he speaks is poison [Laughs]. Even if it’s Bhagavatam. So, putam hari katamrtam, topics of Hari are puta, or pure. Like milk. But, if spoken by the non-Vaishnava, it becomes poison. Same with the holy name, coming out of a non-Vaishnava, it becomes poison [Laughs]. Scriptures, Bhagavad Gita coming from a non-Vaishnava, poison. Bhagavatam from a non-Vaishnava, poison.

So, qualification of a devotee, of a guru, that he should be a Vaishnava, have devotion. When he speaks, then it becomes pure. But, then we have different types of Vaishnavas. So when it talks about coming from the mouth of a Vaishnava, we’re talking about pure Vaishnava. Not mixed Vaishnava [Laughs]. This of course means that you’re at least a madhyama, not a kanishtha. Kanishtha is like a mixed devotee. So we come to the madhyama level, where we accept with faith the Bhakti scriptures and we’re willing to accept guidance from guru, we associate with devotees, we avoid the non-devotees, worship the Lord.

So, but in the worship, that worship should be pure worship, not mixed with material motives. So, that’s the level at least we have to be at. So, but within that madhyama category, of course, there are going to be many gradations. There is a beginning of a madhyama, middle, upper, whatever. And the higher one is, as a Vaishnava, then the more potent the instructions become. Just like if we have a microphone. So that’s like the medium of the message. The message is coming, the sound is coming through the microphone. Now if the non-Vaishnava speaks, we’re not getting the spiritual message at all, we’re getting something else [Laughs]. So that’s like your microphone all rattling and making all sorts of crazy noises when a person speaks, we don’t even get any messages, we just get a bunch of noise [Laughs]. Not valuable at all. So when we get a Vaishnava speaking, then at least we can hear the message properly, like the microphone is working properly. But if we get the higher Vaishnava speaking, then the words are even more clear [Laughs]. Like a perfect microphone, we have different grades of microphones, maybe like Bose is one’s category [Laughs]. You’ve got some cheap, something like that also. It’s very good, and we get the message more intact, like that.

So the more we have the purity of the devotee, then the more we get the pure message coming through. And this becomes more inspiring for us. So in this way, then we have to be devotee, and the more fixed they are, then the better the message comes through, and the more we get value from it.

So then the guru has to be qualified, and the devotee has to be qualified. When both are there, then the transfer of knowledge takes place. And according to the level of the devotee, according to the level of guru, then we get less or more transmission of the proper knowledge. So that’s the basic idea of what guru is in relation to the disciple. We do have a specialization of guru when we have diksha gurus, or initiating gurus. This, of course, is, we could say, as far as Bhagavatam is concerned, it’s very secondary.

So probably only two or three places in Bhagavatam, it talks about diksha [Laughs]. And most of the time, only the siksha is going on. We don’t know, did Narada initiate Vedavyasa? We don’t know. But he gave instructions. And Narada, when he instructs Brahma, does he give him initiation? I don’t know. Oh no, so Brahma instructs Narada [Laughs] , but we don’t know about initiation or whatever. And did Sukadeva initiate Parikshit? No, probably not [Laughs].

So, but more important, that was the siksha. But anyway, we do have things like diksha and that became important. Partially because of Archana or deity worship, which is a little exclusive. And as part of Pancharatra. And we say it’s one of the main aspects of Pancharatra, the worship of the deity and holding festivals for the deity. So, if you’re following Pancharatra, then you should worship the deity. If you want to worship the deity, you have to take Pancharatrika diksha, and get mantras to worship the deity with. So, as far as Pancharatrika scripture is concerned, then you need diksha.

So, previous to Lord Caitanya, then, most of our Vaishnava sampradayas were dependent on Pancharatra. And therefore, they have to emphasize diksha. You’re not a Vaishnava unless you get diksha, because you can’t worship the deity unless [Laughs] you’ve got diksha. And if you don’t worship the deity, you’re not a Vaishnava [Laughs]. So, Vaishnavism and worship of the deity and diksha all kind of went together as a single unit.

So, we’ll see, in those scriptures therefore it says, if you don’t take initiation, you’re useless. [Laughs] Because you can’t worship the deity, and you can’t worship the deity, you’re not a Vaishnava. So then, you know, the two things are kind of implicit in each other. With Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He has changed the emphasis. And instead of deity worship, Nama Sankirtana is the main method for everybody. And Harinama does not require diksha [Laughs]. It’s just chant the holy name. And, of course, qualification is much less, and we still get effect. So therefore, the idea about diksha becomes less important for us in Lord Caitanya’s movement, theoretically at least [Laughs]. Lord Caitanya, of course, took diksha, Nityananda took Diksha, Advaitacharya took Diksha, Gadadhara took diksha, etc. But, as far as I can see, they didn’t worship the deity much with that, so it was more a formality than actually using it, panchartically speaking.

On the other hand, we find that Gopakumar in Brhad Bhagavatamrta, he also got diksha mantra from his guru. He also didn’t worship the deity, but he used that mantra. He did not do Nama Sankirtana. He chanted that mantra as japa for himself, for a whole day of Brahma [Laughs]. So, that pancharatrika diksha mantra can be used not only for deity worship, but for internal worship or meditation.

Devotee: There’s been some comment that the sound is a bit low.

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Oh, okay. Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna. So, therefore, the emphasis has changed with Caitanya Mahaprabhu concerning the mantra and Harinama. So, the mantra is there for Pancharatra, and that requires diksha, but chanting the holy name is more powerful for us and it’s our main sadhana, and therefore, the chanting of diksha mantra, if there’s meditation or even in deity worship is not the main element. So, therefore, the diksha becomes less important. We see our philosophy and what it is. It’s much less important, and simply chanting the holy name is important.

But what about the teachings? So, we see that, yes, Lord Caitanya says, Harinama eva kevalam [Laughs]. But, only the holy name, only the holy name, only the holy name. But, if we look at the conduct of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He didn’t just chant only the name. He did many other things. He went to the Jagannath Temple every day. He was taking prasadam. He was associating with devotees, hearing Bhagavatam every day [Laughs]. So, all those things are there. They’re never rejected. But, emphasis upon Nama Sankirtana as the main element.

So, therefore, there’s nothing wrong with the diksha, and, of course, I said Lord Caitanya, Nityanada, they all took diksha, but emphasis is more on Harinama for our spiritual development. So, and, when we’re having the Harinama, then, it is independent of everything else. But, we see that Lord Caitanya particularly instructed the Goswamis to write scriptures. And, He Himself listened to Bhagavatam every day [Laughs].

So, what is the relationship between that, Sravanam, and Sadhu-sanga, and Harinama, even though it’s independent? And, the answer is that it is a good support, because it’s through that knowledge that we can do Harinama effectively and purely. So, therefore, along with the chanting of the holy name, we do need some knowledge. We need some siksha. So, in that sense, we still need guru. Because, if we’re going to get the knowledge, we have to get it through guru. But, not diksha guru. It could be siksha guru. So, therefore, the emphasis, again, is upon the siksha rather than the diksha.

In ISKCON, however, we kind of conflate the two things, and we combine it into one. So, when we talk about diksha guru, what we’re expecting more is the siksha [Laughs]. And, when we talk about diksha guru, we rarely think about the diksha guru giving the mantras [Laughs]. We’re talking about he’s giving us teachings. But, anyway, technically, the diksha guru is giving the mantras of second initiation, not so much the teaching. Of course, he gives both, but that people don’t regard as too important anyway, except for deity worship. So, we kind of combine the two things together.

At the same time, if we’re going to call him a diksha guru, and if we’re getting siksha as well, fine. But, apart from that, you can also have other siksha gurus. And, in some cases, the siksha guru may be more important than the diksha guru, as we see in the case of, let’s say, Bhaktivinoda Thakur, he had a Diksha Guru, Bipin Bihari Goswami, but you hardly ever hear him mention it, and we don’t mention it at all in ISKCON [Laughs]. So, we trace a line through Jagannath Dasa Babaji, who was a Siksha Guru. So, your Siksha Guru may be more prominent than your Diksha Guru, even though they’re non-different in one sense.

So, in Caitanya Caritamrta, and in the very beginning there, there’s a whole discussion of Siksha and Diksha, and the conclusion is that they are equal, and they have to be given equal respect. But again, if one is giving more, then we put more respect to that person. So, it may be the Siksha Guru who’s giving more knowledge, so we give more respect, and then the Diksha Guru is also there. In some cases, the Diksha Guru may be more important, giving more siksha, and so we give more respect there.

But in any case, those two types of Gurus are there, and we should make some sort of distinction according to the function, even though it may be the same person in many cases. Nevertheless, we should look for the function of the Guru. And though the Guru is giving the Diksha mantra, and that’s also non-different from Krishna, ultimately, it’s the Siksha which is more important. And if the Diksha Guru can give that, fine. If we have to get siksha from others, then that’s also wonderful, and we have to respect that person as Guru. So, that’s basically how we should do everything.

Okay, any questions?

Q & A :

1.) Maharaj you mentioned that it’s all about question and answers, and we have to ask questions. As you mentioned about Bhagavatam also, it’s all about questions and answers. So, as you mentioned, it’s all about question and answers, it’s important and disciples should be asking questions. So, it’s important to ask questions, but also how important it is to focus on the quality of questions we ask.

[Laughs] Yes, when they say pariprasna, thorough questioning, they mean thorough spiritual questioning. So, obviously, you should ask questions about spiritual life, and when the Sanatana, Rupa went to Lord Caitanya, then they say, how can we get delivered from the material world [Laughs]? So, then He explains Bhakti Yoga and Harinama. Unfortunately, in ISKCON, we accept Gurus. It’s probably not there in other Sampradayas so much, but in ISKCON particularly for some reason [Laughs], when you accept Guru, you expect the Guru to solve all your problems.

So, therefore, you go to the Guru, and your most important question is, shall I quit my job and get that job over there, or should I get married now, or should I have one children or two children? So, these are the important questions that they want to ask Guru, which are technically not even to be asked to the Guru at all [Laughs]. But somehow, these are the things we expect Guru to answer for us. So, that in one sense is a little bit disappointing, because we’re going to Guru for the wrong things. And when, pariprasna, does not mean that [Laughs].

So, we should have spiritual questions that, you know, we have to clarify, things which are for our spiritual advancement. This is not to deny that, of course, because we have material bodies, and we’re living in the material world, that’s going to affect our devotional service, fine. But as much as possible, we shouldn’t burden the Guru with those problems. And even if he gives an answer, it may not be a perfect answer, because usually Gurus are sannyasis, and they can’t even understand what you’re doing in your grhastha life [Laughs]. So, you shouldn’t get any perfect answers from him [Laughs]. So, the speciality of Guru, of course, is because he’s supposed to be spiritually advanced and have spiritual knowledge and scripture, etc. Then, you go to him for those topics.

2.) Thank you, Maharaj, for this uplifting class that is so important for our realization. And we need more and more, so that we can understand how important for us to follow the instructions of Guru Maharaj and serve him better. Maharaj, we know that in early 80s, you have been with Guru Maharaj in Mayapur. You have served as his secretary. So, could you please kindly give us some of your insights, or maybe some of his pastimes, so that we can take inspiration from that, so that we can serve Guru Maharaj as it should be, and in a better way.

Well, I suppose one of the main principles is that when he is giving advice to different people whatever, and they’re asking questions, or they’re writing letters, etc., apart from, you know, general things, one of the main emphasis is that the people should work for unified ISKCON, and not try to do individual things away from ISKCON, away from the authorities [Laughs]. So, they should also cooperate together, but it should be under some authority, not do anything independently.

The tendency, of course, of individual jivas, because we’re individuals, we have our own idea about how we want to do things [Laughs]. And everybody got their own little idea like that. And some people becomes very, is strong, maybe by their nature or whatever. So, then they want to do things in their way, and they don’t want to listen to what other people say. In other words, in order to have an organization, we do have to cooperate [Laughs]. And sometimes our own ideas, and our own strong opinions, and way of doing things, we may have to submit, and not put those into implementation, because there’s other persons there. And we should look at the group rather than the individual. And so, we have to cooperate.

So, again, like Prabhupada gives the example, and Jayapataka Maharaj also gave the example that we have sticks, and if you can break one stick, and Prabhupada gave the same example. But if you have a bundle of sticks, you can’t break it [Laughs]. So, if ISKCON is unified, fine. If we have all sorts of different ideas, and people know all sorts of different things, and different goals, etc, then the unity gets split, and therefore the movement is likely to fracture because of that.

So, Prabhupada also wanted to keep the movement together, and he was thinking of ISKCON for thousands of years or whatever [Laughs]. So, to do that, we do have to have that sort of willingness to cooperate with each other, and not start splintering off into different groups.

3.) A question I think is in everybody’s mind is that why is sometimes, I mean, Guru Maharaj was very strong, and why is he going through so much suffering from one point [Laughs]? And some people speculate, they think, oh, it’s because of the disciples, they are not following the instruction of Guru Maharaj, or is to understand that it was part of his karma, or is to understand this is a test of the Lord on him, but he’s very strong. So, can you please clarify and share some light for us?

So, of course, the idea of karma of disciples, or whatever we say, actions of disciples influencing Guru, that is definitely stated in the scripture, that because you accept a responsibility as a guru, with those who are your followers, whether it’s a guru disciple, or teacher and disciple, or husbands and wives and children, or king and citizens and ministers, there’s a kind of a shared [Laughs] responsibility there. And so, if the disciples do some sinful activity, then the guru has to accept part of the result, not completely.

In other words, it’s not that because we’re disciples and we commit sins, I’m free from sin, Guru is going to get all my sins, so I can do more sinful activity [Laughs]. Like committing sin on the strength of the Holy Name. That doesn’t work like that, but at least some portion of the sinful reaction goes to the guru, and therefore, Hari Bhakti Vilasa says, the guru should not accept many disciples. But then, [Not clear] says, I’m the worst disciple. So, [Laughs] just imagine [Laughs] how much karma, even though it’s not intentional, sinful activities or whatever, then he could get that effect. So, that’s there.

However, we also know that bhakti itself destroys all sins and all karmas, so you can destroy your own sins, as Ajamila, all of his karmas destroyed in one second [Laughs], chanting the Holy Name. So, if you’re chanting intentionally, they can destroy all these effects, as well as your personal karmas or whatever. So, that should not be so much of a worry for persons practicing bhakti. For other persons, yes, it is a worry. If you’re just a teacher and you’ve got all these people and you’re responsible for them and they’re doing sin, then that just becomes a problem because you’re not doing bhakti yoga [Laughs]. If you’re doing bhakti, it becomes less of a problem ultimately.

Apart from that, of course, and then, of course, as we become more purified, we’re destroying our karmas, so we should get much less effect. And that’s a general principle. But then, even if your karmas are destroyed, you may look like you’re getting effects. And that’s the example of Ajamila. All his karmas are gone, but it didn’t look like those karmas were gone because he was still sinful and he still committed sinful activities up till deathbed [Laughs]. And then he was supposed to get the reactions from the Yamadutas.

So, the explanation is that, sometimes, though the karmas are actually destroyed through the process of bhakti, there’s an appearance of karmas remaining. And it’s also given that even if you’re in prema, it may look like you’re suffering. Well, is that karma or not? And it says, answer is no. It’s an appearance of karma. So, it’s not really caused by reactions or whatever, but there’s some pattern of suffering to the body that remains there and it’s arranged by the Supreme Lord. So, it’s not karma as such. It’s arranged by the Lord. That’s another thing.

Another aspect is, apart from karmas or shadows of karmas due to previous activities or whatever, in this lifetime itself, we do activities which affect our body, obviously. So, I may not have a karma for getting diabetes, but if I indulge in sugar 24 hours a day for 30 years, it’s more likely [Laughs] I’m going to get diabetes [Laughs], or whatever like that [Laughs]. And it’s not because of karma. It’s just because I like sugar, maybe, instead [Laughs]. So, things we do in this life also affect us. So, our habits of this lifetime affect us and they may weaken our body or whatever.

So, that’s another effect. So, where Jayapataka Maharaj is always traveling around the world and he has got a weak heart, but then he doesn’t worry about that and he keeps straining himself more [Laughs] and more [Laughs] because he wants to travel and preach. So, that’s another thing. He overstrains his body because he just wants to do more service for Krishna and Prabhupada [Laughs]. So, that’s another, could be another reason. So, various factors are there.

Another factor, of course, is the Lord Himself. So, we see the case of, like the Pandavas who were Nitya Siddhas and have no karma, but then they were having suffering and 13 years of banishment in the forest or whatever. It’s not karma at all. That’s arrangement of the Supreme Lord for certain pastimes of His own. So, that’s another factor that comes in.

4.) We’ve always seen Guru Maharaj is, I know over the years, you’ve assisted Guru Maharaj to have his medication to maintain some of his, I don’t know how [Laughs] to say. But I know you have a lot of pastime with Guru Maharaj supporting him through his difficulty like diabetes or heart issues and herbal Ayurvedic treatment and so forth. Are you able to share some of those with us?

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, with his sickness?

Devotee: Not sickness, but actually your godbrothers’ support to each other.

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: [Laughs].

Devotee: Helping him and preaching him and whatever.

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Oh, well.

Devotee: Especially in the 80s when it was happening.

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, I was only with him for like 3 or 4 years as his secretary at one point of time [Laughs]. So, therefore, I was just assisting him or whatever like that. As I told him, actually [Laughs], half the time he wasn’t there because he was off in [Laughs] foreign countries [Laughs]. So, that’s automatically one half of the time gone. But the other half of the time, of course, he was there. So, sometimes he was in Mayapur and I was there. Sometimes he was traveling in India itself and then I would be there also. So, in that sense, I was with him maybe half of… I don’t know. How long was his journeys abroad? What percentage of time? Half or more?

Devotee: Yes. Half.

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Half or more?

Devotee: Yes. Six months.

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: At least six months. Even more than that probably. So, then it was less than six months at a time. And then, of course, some was in Mayapur and some were in other places. So, then I got some association at that time. So, the main thing then, at that time is that the circumstances themselves were a little bit difficult because that was the 1980s and communications were not so good [Laughs]. So, we spent a lot of time struggling [Laughs] just on communications, for instance, to make a phone call to Bombay from Calcutta. It takes you a whole day. And even when you get through, after you book your call and you get it through, you can’t hear what the other person is saying. So, you’re trying to communicate and you’re spending all your day just trying to make a phone call [Laughs]. So, sometimes we have to use telegrams [Laughs]. Like Prabhupada also was using telegrams [Laughs]. Even that is a little short sentence. So, communications was a little difficult and whatever. And as I said, we didn’t have computers at that time. So, then I would be using a little typewriter [Laughs], carrying a typewriter with us around. Probably typewriters are no longer available anywhere in the world [Laughs].

Devotee: No, in Calcutta they still use them outside the court.

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: All the guys are typing the things on the legal papers [Laughs]. So, anyway, our communications, we had to struggle a lot with these type of things [Laughs] rather than do anything else.

Devotee: Understanding all the letters?

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah. And a lot of the time was spent struggling with that plus the transportation itself. So, we’d be going by train [Laughs] most of the time, by train from one place to the other, one place to the other like that. So, a lot of our time was just trying to organize all that part of stuff. You know, the technical part of things, as far as communications and transport is concerned [Laughs]. So, anyway, within that time, then I did get some association with him. And as I said, the main idea was that he would be talking to people and whatever, either by letter or personally or whatever. And the main idea is he’s trying to encourage people to stay united and not fracture the movement by independent decisions and whatever.

Devotee: He was given also the order by Srila Prabhupada to unite the whole Vaishnava community.

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, yeah.

Devotee: He said something about that.

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, so that was… Yeah, yeah. Generally, we stay separate from the other groups because they tend to criticize us and whatnot, even in Mayapur [Laughs]. But then Srila Prabhupada also at one point was thinking of how to unite all the Gaudiyas together since just like ISKCON should not be divided, the Gaudiyas also should not be divided. So, as much as possible, we tried to unite them all as a force. And, of course, one of the forces there are the other followers of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura and the Gaudiya Maths particularly there are so many around Mayapur. So then, Prabhupada himself made the, what is the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust. It’s some… It’s a trust to try to help out other temples and things which were struggling like that. So, even give money to the Gaudiya Maths, I think, and the Yogapitha I think, give money to build their hall.

Devotee: And the temple.

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, and other ones were not even Gaudiya Maths, just separate groups like ancestral Sripaths of the descendants of the Goswamis [Laughs], the descendants of the associates of Lord Caitanya, whatever, they have their own deities, whatever. So, he made this trust to give money to them to renovate and repair and whatever, to help them out. So, all across Bengal, that’s… and even Bangladesh, they try to help other people. So, the idea is to kind of unite all the Vaishnavas, Gaudiya Vaishnavas, particularly, together. So then, Jayapataka Swami also got… took up that responsibility afterwards and he’s the main, let’s say, instigator of trying to get that Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust active and whatever. And he continued that throughout his preaching and whatever. So, and apart from that, of course, then every year now they have this meeting, I think, on Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati’s disappearance day, is it?

Devotee: Yeah, we invite all the…

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, so they invite all the Gaudiyas together and they have a group meeting or whatever. So, that’s some attempt to get some, let’s say, unity among the Gaudiya groups, particularly Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura’s group.

5.) If we ask you what is the quality comes to your mind when you remember Guru Maharaj, what are the few qualities that comes in your mind? His dominant quality.

One of the qualities is always expand the preaching and make more disciples [Laughs]. At the expense of his health. Well, now his thing is to make more Gurus [Laughs]. Because he knows he cannot, you know, keep preaching like this, so he wants to make more Gurus. So, that’s a new thing, which is again related to, you know, expanding the number of people. But my point is that it doesn’t have to be Diksha Guru to expand the movement. And primarily we’re interested in Siksha anyway, so we should expand the Siksha Gurus rather than the Diksha Gurus ultimately [Laughs]. That’s my point [Laughs].

6.) Vishwanath Cakravarti Thakura, We want to hear more information about Vishwanath Cakravarti Thakura.

What about him? Oh, yeah. So, I think it was two or three years ago. There is a place, I don’t know how far it is from Mayapur, maybe three hours away or two hours away like that. That’s his birthplace. So, there is a place there with a little commemoration. However, they don’t really want to have anything so much [Laughs] to do with ISKCON or whatever [Laughs]. So, therefore, through the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust, we did purchase a separate piece of land right next to it. And now we’re building a structure there on that land. So, we’ll have a little monument there and a little ashram and there will be some, little bit of worship there. And, of course, they can use that for namahattas and things like that, for the local people. And it will commemorate that spot. And if devotees want to respect Vishwanath Cakravarti’s birthplace, they can go there and there will be some ISKCON devotees there to act as their guides and whatever. And they can even stay there. They’ll have a guest room, etc. So, it’s not completely built up yet, but it is in the process right now.

7.) You have mentioned few times about unity and unifying and staying together. So, sometimes in this day and age, it practically becomes like a challenge amongst devotees. So, can you share any kind of experiences or practical tips when challenging situations come and how we can focus? Because as you mentioned, everybody has their own ideas and everybody goes here and there. But Prabhupada has also mentioned, and this is very important, as you said, it should not fracture. So, any practical experiences or tips or anything which can help to bring that unity in our mood?

So, as much as possible, we try to keep everybody together. Nevertheless, some people have very strong ideas and maybe strong personalities, and they can’t get around a lot of other people. And we can try our best to keep them within the movement. It may not be possible completely, but we have an alternative to that, which can be experimented with. I think that they’re trying that now. People do have their own ideas and they don’t want to change their ideas. The main is gone, has a little bit different idea about something. It could be philosophical, managerial, or policy-wise, or whatever. Some people want to do more Varnashram. Some people want to do more something else, whatever, you know, farms or whatever. They may have different ideas and may not exactly the policy that the GBC has right now. And they don’t want to make that official policy. And at the same time, they’re still loyal to Prabhupada and whatever, so how to accommodate them. Because if they’re in, they may start criticizing ISKCON more and more, because you’re not doing this properly, you’re not doing this properly, whatever, and it creates a little disturbance.

So what to do? So if they’re not going to keep their mouth shut [Laughs], because they do have strong ideas and they think they’re right, they may be right, whatever, but it’s not the policy at the moment, so then the next best thing is that they can be subsidiary group. Kind of ISKCON, at the same time, a little separate. And this is what happened in the Catholic Church. Different groups of monks decided, no, we don’t like what you’re doing because you’re spending the money this way and we think you should be simpler and act like true monks and, you know, do more austerities and whatever. And main church was looking at, oh, you shouldn’t criticize us like that [Laughs].

So eventually they make a deal, okay, you’re still going to be recognized, but you stay a little separate [Laughs]. So they made Franciscans and what else, they made the Dominicans and all sorts of different groups came out because individual priests had their own ideas which are a little different, but not same philosophy, but a little different policy. So they made separate groups and they allow them to do their thing, and then they don’t criticize. And that way they got their independence to do what they think is the way of doing it. At the same time, they’re still part of the main church or whatever.

So something like that could also be in ISKCON [Laughs]. They can be recognized by ISKCON in one sense, at the same time, a little bit separate with a different policy, and they don’t interfere or criticize the main body [Laughs]. So that’s one way of doing it. Others, of course, may have gross material motives, so we have to be careful of that. And if they’re simply there for some personal motives, then maybe that, they shouldn’t even be part of ISKCON [Laughs] at all [Laughs]. They’d be a completely separate group, and they may succeed or fail on their own [Laughs].

8.) Maharaj can you tell us about the resolution of the GBC 2013 about Srila Prabhupada being the Founder Acharya and Siksha Guru for the whole movement?

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I think there’s two resolutions on that [Laughs]. So one was done then. It was actually probably in response to Madhu Pandit [Laughs]. Because Madhu Pandit said, Prabhupada is the Diksha Guru. So then our stance is, no, Prabhupada is the main Siksha Guru [Laughs]. So, Prabhupada is the main Siksha Guru. What does that mean? So what it means is, as I said, we have Siksha Gurus and Diksha Gurus. Now, Diksha Guru, of course, is one who gives you the mantra, like that. The Siksha Guru is one who gives teachings. But the teacher can be of several sorts.

So one is a teacher who’s teaching, like the Diksha Guru gives the mantra, so he’s living. The other is a significant founder or Acharya who also acts as the teacher, even if he’s not living. So therefore, we can take Prabhupada as the founder of ISKCON, so he’s put in one status as the primary Siksha Guru for everybody in the future. And therefore, we can take him as Siksha Guru, one type of Siksha Guru. That doesn’t, let’s say, mean that we reject Diksha and Siksha Gurus who are living also. Everyone should also give that proper respect.

So, one of the main reasons for doing that is to emphasize Srila Prabhupada. And one of the main criticisms of the ritviks is that Prabhupada becomes de-emphasized because we emphasize the living Diksha Guru, and everybody in the past is insignificant, so then Prabhupada gets demoted. So this is an idea of uniting ISKCON and elevating the position of Srila Prabhupada by stating that he is the primary Siksha Guru for all devotees in the future as well, so that all devotees do have shelter of Srila Prabhupada, and they can’t, they don’t feel that, well, you know, I don’t have a Guru of sufficient standing to take shelter of.

Then you take shelter of Srila Prabhupada. Everybody can do that. Which is somewhat akin to, in the, let’s say, Ramanuja Sampradaya, where Madhvacharya is the main shelter even after a thousand years. They do have their individual Diksha Gurus and whatever, but still they take, you know, that Ramanujachariya as the main Guru [Laughs] in spite of the fact he’s a thousand years apart [Laughs]. So therefore, it’s not uncommon to do that.

So whereas the ritviks are saying that you take Prabhupada as the Diksha Guru and we say no, we say, he can’t be the Siksha Guru because there is historical precedent for that, but not for the Diksha Guru being in the past [Laughs] communicating by tape recording or something. It’s the mantras [Laughs].

9.) If we don’t have Vapu Seva with Diksha Guru, is it better to do Vani Seva, and are they equally good?

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Is it? Come again.

Devotee: If we don’t have Vapu Seva with the Guru, is it better to do Vani Seva, and are they equally good?

HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, actually, I think Srila Prabhupada has said the Vani Seva is more important than the Vapu Seva [Laughs]. Of course, we don’t reject the serving the body and, you know, directly physically serving the Guru. We see that Krishna and Balarama did that in Avantipura [Laughs] whatever [Laughs] when they were serving in the Gurukula, and it’s common, you know, that the disciple serves the Guru, you know, physically. That’s if they are together. Now, at the present time, in ISKCON it’s not the case [Laughs]. The Guru is separated from the disciple, so you can’t do the Vapu Seva unless he comes once a year or once every five years or whatever, you get a little opportunity. So therefore, that’s not so prominently, you know, or common. And, of course, that is one type of thing. We say, you know, pariprasna and seva, etc. But, as I said, the other aspect of the Seva was to follow the instruction. So that’s actually more important [Laughs]. So, and it’s supported by the Vapu Seva. So, if we don’t have the opportunity for the Vapu Seva, then at least we carry out the Vani Seva, follow the instructions, and that actually is more important anyway. So, we can be satisfied with that.

10.) What is the best service the disciple can offer to his Guru?

Best service is to follow the instructions [Laughs]. In the purport, vyavasāyātmikā buddhi [Bg 2.41] by Vishwanath Cakravarti Thakura that Prabhupada said inspired him, to follow Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura’s instruction to preach around the world, etc. That actual quote is, because it’s talking about one-pointed intelligence not divided. So, you’re fixed in service to Supreme Lord.

So, in the purport there, Vishwanath Chakravarti Thakura says, therefore, just as a sick person will take a medicine which preserves his life, and if he doesn’t take the medicine, he dies. So, the same way the spiritual master, the order of the spiritual master is like the medicine [Laughs] that you take, and if you don’t take it, you die spiritually [Laughs]. So, then he says, you follow that order one-pointedly, like vyavasāyātmikā buddhi [Bg 2.41].

But then what is the instruction? That final instruction is serve the lotus feet of Radha and Krishna [Laughs]. So, we have many different instructions Guru may give, but ultimately, it’s there so we can progress up to Prema. So, that should be our final goal, and the final order of Guru is somehow or other, your service should lead to that.

Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna.

Devotees: Grantharaj Srimad Bhagavatam ki jai!!! HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj ki jai!!! His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada ki jai!!! Nitai Gaura Premanande Hari Haribol!!!