Srimad Bhagavatam 3.16.17 | HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj | ISKCON Bhaktivedanta Manor | 26 June 2026
jaya rādhā-mādhava kuñja-vihārī
gopījana-vallabha giri-vara-dhārī
yaśodā-nandana vraja-jana-rañjana
yamunā-tīra-vana-cārī
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
Jaya Prabhupāda Jaya Prabhupāda
Prabhupāda Jaya Prabhupāda
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale
śrīmate bhaktivedānta-svāmin iti nāmine
namas te sārasvate deve gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe
nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe
jaya śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda
Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare
Reading from Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 3 Chapter 16 Verse 17.
ŚB 3.16.17
ब्रह्मण्यस्य परं दैवं ब्राह्मणा: किल ते प्रभो ।
विप्राणां देवदेवानां भगवानात्मदैवतम् ॥ १७ ॥
brahmaṇyasya paraṁ daivaṁ
brāhmaṇāḥ kila te prabho
viprāṇāṁ deva-devānāṁ
bhagavān ātma-daivatam
Synonyms
brahmaṇyasya — of the supreme director of the brahminical culture; param — the highest; daivam — position; brāhmaṇāḥ — the brāhmaṇas; kila — for the teaching of others; te — Your; prabho — O Lord; viprāṇām — of the brāhmaṇas; deva-devānām — to be worshiped by the demigods; bhagavān — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; ātma — the self; daivatam — worshipable Deity.
Translation
O Lord, You are the supreme director of the brahminical culture. Your considering the brāhmaṇas to be in the highest position is Your example for teaching others. Actually You are the supreme worshipable Deity, not only for the gods but for the brāhmaṇas also.
Purport
In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is clearly stated that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the cause of all causes. There are undoubtedly many demigods, the chiefs of whom are Brahmā and Śiva. Lord Viṣṇu is the Lord of Brahmā and Śiva, not to speak of the brāhmaṇas in this material world. As mentioned in Bhagavad-gītā, the Supreme Lord is very favorable towards all activities performed according to brahminical culture, or the qualities of control of the senses and mind, cleanliness, forbearance, faith in scripture, and practical and theoretical knowledge. The Lord is the Supersoul of everyone. In Bhagavad-gītā it is said that the Lord is the source of all emanations; thus He is also the source of Brahmā and Śiva.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj:
So, this is a verse praising Brahmana status, Brahmana varna, Brahminical culture, and at the same time showing that above the brāhmaṇas is something superior, that is Supreme Lord. Now, we’ll find often that in Bhagavatam, the Brahmanas get praised, and of course, we see that Krishna is fond of the brāhmaṇas and the cows [Laughs]. Go brahmana hitaya ca etc. So, Krishna is fond of the brāhmaṇas, and then they have whole sections where the offense to the brāhmaṇas can be so serious, concerning the story of Nṛgā, for instance, how the brāhmaṇas get insulted, and then it causes problems. And here in the story of Jaya and Vijaya, the Kumāras, they get angry because they get insulted by the gatekeepers, so that’s considered to be an offense also.
So, and then the status of a brāhmaṇa and respect for the brāhmaṇa is praised as being ultimate. So, on one level that is true, that is the level of Karma Yoga and Varnashram, where we have four classes of people and the brāhmaṇa is at the top, so the brāhmaṇa has to be respected by everybody else, and he gets glorified. Now, culture has existed for a long time in India, and of course, according to scripture, it is wonderful. At the same time, we find, according to modern way of thinking, it gets condemned, that why we should praise the brāhmaṇas, accept everybody as equal, one is not superior to the other.
This, of course, is because over the thousands of years, the idea of the brāhmaṇa became related to family and birth, and therefore anyone who was born in a brāhmaṇa family automatically is honored as a brāhmaṇa, even if he’s not got the qualities, etc., so then it becomes a little ridiculous.
So, these praises of the brāhmaṇa in the scriptures is there to show the honor for the brāhmaṇa who is truly qualified. So, if we look at Bhagavatam and other scriptures and go back to smritis like Manu Smriti, etc., the duties of the brāhmaṇa are clearly defined, and one of the main items of the brāhmaṇa is to know the Vedas. Not only he can memorize the Vedas, he has to know the purpose of the Vedas, the ultimate goal of the Vedas, and then he has to practice, so then he is called a brāhmaṇa. And if he’s got the name brāhmaṇa, but he doesn’t do that, it’s considered useless [Laughs].
So, in Vishnu Purana it says the whole thing becomes meaningless if we give charity to a brāhmaṇa, and the brāhmaṇa has no qualification, the charity is useless, it’s like no good. So, the brāhmaṇa is a true brāhmaṇa when he knows the Vedas. But then, of course, what is knowing the Vedas? We should know the purpose of the Vedas, the goal of the Vedas. So, ultimately, of course, brāhmaṇa means one who knows Brahman, one who knows the ultimate truth, highest truth, Brahman. So, that is the qualification of a real brāhmaṇa.
And, then the question comes, what is Brahman [Laughs]? So, it could be the impersonal Brahman, which is the conclusion of many people, so if somebody is an impersonalist, then he’s a brāhmaṇa, if he knows Brahman, he studies Jñāna. Of course, the other is Brahman means Krishna or Vishnu [Laughs], so a Vaishnava [Laughs]. But what this does mean, of course, we do have brāhmaṇas who don’t believe in either of that, they are following Karma mimamsa, and they believe Swargaloka is supreme [Laughs]. So, they’re following the Vedas, and the Vedas also say Swargaloka is eternal, etc., and people are following that. So, we get a wide variety of people who are brāhmaṇas who know the Vedas.
Some know only Karma, some know impersonal Brahman and liberation, some know Supreme Lord. So, then the knower of Brahman could be any of these three [Laughs]. So, and they get respected, at least they get respected. So, that’s a brāhmaṇa in the normal sense of the term. And, of course, because they are knowers and preservers of the Vedas, they get proper respect for that. But as I said, the ultimate conclusion, though it is Brahman, the ultimate conclusion of Brahman is to know that Supreme Lord and become a Vaishnava.
So, we see that very clearly stated in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, where all the different animals are classed, and then the human beings, and then the people who follow Varnashram are higher than that, the brāhmaṇas are higher than that, because they are at the top of the Varnashram system, and a brāhmaṇa who is properly following, he is better than that [Laughs]. The one who knows the whole purpose of the Vedas is the best brāhmaṇa, but higher than that is Vaishnava.
So, the Vaishnava is actually put in a separate category, even though he could be included in the brāhmaṇa category. Why is that? It is because normally, when we use the word brāhmaṇa, we are thinking of the varṇa. And the Vaishnava is beyond the varṇas. He may come from a brāhmaṇa varṇa, but he may come from a sūdra varṇa. Or he may come from no varṇa at all, like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. But the Vaishnava is superior to all the varṇas.
So, that will distinguish him from the regular brāhmaṇa. So, we cannot say just the brāhmaṇa is supreme. We have to say the Vaishnava is supreme. He is the highest category. He may be a brāhmaṇa, but he may not be a brāhmaṇa. So, it is not dependent upon the varṇa or lack of varṇa at all. It is dependent on the faith and conviction and the knowledge and realization of that particular person. So, he is put in a higher position.
So, though we have all these glorifications of the brāhmaṇa and respect for the brāhmaṇa, that is in the scriptures, and true, we have to respect, but higher than that is the respect given to the Vaishnava. Much, much higher than that. Because he knows the, fixed in the highest conclusion of all. That is, Bhagavan is supreme. So, therefore, when we read the glorification, we should keep that in mind.
So, Prabhupada uses the word brahminical culture and he praises that, as we see here. And sometimes he also says, our goal is to be brahminical. And we have brahminical initiation as well. But then, what does that word mean, brahminical, in that sense? Because, technically, the Vaishnava is higher than the brahmana. So, is our goal to be a brahmana? Or is our goal to be a Vaishnava? Which is it? Vaishnava. Yeah, so then why are we trying to be brahmanas [Laughs]? We get brahmana initiation to become a brahmana [Laughs]. So, it looks a little bit confusing to us. What is that term?
Devotee: [Not audible].
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, it depends on what we mean by the word brahmana again, isn’t it? Or the word Vaishnava, even [Laughs]. So, of course, we have different types of Vaishnavas also. Some are false Vaishnavas, or fake Vaishnavas. Some are Kaniṣṭhas. And then we have Madhyamas and Uttamas. We have grades of Vaishnavas [Laughs] also [Laughs]. But again, we have grades of brahmanas also. If you know the impersonal Brahman, you’re one type of brahmana. If you know Karmakanda, you’re another type of brahmana. If you know Vishnu, you’re another type of brahmana.
Devotee: [Not audible].
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, yeah. So, we strive to be brahminical in one sense, but we can say as far as society is concerned, we would take that function of being the spiritual head of the society. But as far as being Vaishnavas is concerned, that’s actually a higher role, because we’re not so much interested in varṇas, as far as, okay, preserving varṇāśrama, fine. But as far as ultimate, what is the conclusion, it’s not to be in the varṇas at all, it’s to be beyond the varṇas, and it’s to be a Vaishnava, and to practice bhakti.
So, we can be ideal brahmanas within the normal society, but at the same time, we’re playing a double role, so to speak, because if we’re only brahmanas and we’re not Vaishnavas, then the whole thing is useless again [Laughs]. So ultimately, we should be a Vaishnava plus, with that added title brahmana or whatever like that. So we can’t really separate the two and say your goal is to be a brahmana. It can’t be separated from being a Vaishnava.
Interestingly enough, in our tradition, the goal, of course, is to be a Vaishnava, and we become a Vaishnava by several methods. One is a pancharatrika Vaishnava, which requires diksha. But it does not require varṇa. So if you get the diksha, and it doesn’t matter what varṇa or no varṇa, if you get the diksha, you’re initiated, you’re a Vaishnava, and you’re qualified to worship a deity. So you’re not a Brahmana. You’re a Vaishnava, and you’re qualified to worship the deity. If you’re a Brahmana, but you don’t have the Vaishnava diksha, you’re not qualified to worship the deity, at least our deities [Laughs]. You could be a Mayavadi or whatever. So you’re not qualified to worship the deity.
So the qualification is not to be a Brahminical, but to get the Vaishnava mantra, which we get at second initiation, regardless of whether you’re a Brahmana or not a Brahmana or whatever. So that is kind of implicit in pancharatra, it’s a disregard for the varṇa as such as the main qualification. It is considered, of course, but it’s not the qualification, and therefore anyone who gets the mantra is qualified to worship the deity, etc. So then the emphasis was not put upon being a Brahmana or whatever.
However, tradition is quite strong, even in India, even 500 years ago, and even 200 years ago, even 100 years ago. And thus, people would criticize, oh, these Gaudiya Vaishnavas, low class, they worship the deity, they’re not even Brahmanas [Laughs]. Because normally, it’s the Brahmanas who are doing all the worship, you know, they are learned people in society and whatever, and they get to go in the temple and worship the deity, etc.
And here we have the Vaishnavas, they’re not Brahmanas, and they just got their pancharatrika diksha, and they’re going and worshiping deities. Ah, very low class. So that was the criticism laid by some Brahmanas. We’ve got the smarta Brahmanas [Laughs]. They are unqualified. Of course, this is according to pancharatra scripture. No, they are qualified. It’s not a matter of varna, it’s a matter of your pancharatrika diksha. If the guru thinks you’re qualified, as a devotee, you’re qualified, and he gives you mantra, and you can worship the deity. So, not much argument there. However, from the point of view of others, if you don’t accept pancharatra [Laughs], then they’ll say, no, no, no, you can’t do that, you have to be a Brahmana, worship the deity, etc.
So that was a big controversy in Bhaktivinoda’s time, in Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur’s time, and they even had a big conference about that at one time. And they called all the learned pandits from Vrindavan and Bengal, etc., to discuss and debate about, what is a Brahmana, and what is a Vaishnava, and who’s superior, etc. Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakur himself went there, and based on that meeting, then a whole book was written, Brahmans and Vaishnavas, in which he argued the superiority of the Vaishnava over the Brahmana, and he’s the most qualified person of all.
So, if we look in Bhagavatam for instance, we will see it is clearly mentioned that even if you are not in a varna, and you’re a dog-eater, which means not even a sudra, if you take the bhakti, if you chant the holy name purely, even once, you’re more qualified than a Brahmana. And you can do all the ceremonies that a Brahmana could do, technically speaking. So in other words, just by being a Vaishnava, then you’re better than a Brahmana. That’s the conclusion of Bhagavatam itself. So that was the point Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur was making. Vaishnava, a true Vaishnava, who’s practicing pure bhakti, whatever, he is superior to any Brahmana. Because he knows the conclusion of everything. He’s getting the highest goal.
So the Vaishnava is the highest of all. And if you are practicing, then you’re higher automatically. But of course, the smartas and whoever, they don’t really accept that. They say, no, no, we have our varnas here, we have our, you know [Laughs], Upanayanam, you get your thread, and you’re qualified and all that. And Bhagavatam kind of rejects that. It goes beyond that Vedic culture, in that sense.
So, arguments were there in that debate. According to our version of it, Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati won the debate [Laughs]. I don’t know what the others felt, but anyway, some followers were there, and they said he’s actually had better arguments. But arguments actually don’t change people’s mind too much also [Laughs]. And defeating people often doesn’t really make them change their mind either. So that’s what happened there probably also.
So then he did another radical thing. And that is, when he initiated Vaishnavas and gave them Vaishnava mantra, they’re automatically superior to a brahmana. And you shouldn’t criticize. But, to show that practically, then he gave them the Brahma Gayatri mantra and gave them a brahmana thread [Laughs]. Not that they become brahmanas, but actually they surpass the brahmana, and they can do anything a brahmana can do. But not that he’s trying to be a brahmana as such and work within the varna system. Rather, he’s superior, but he can do any function of a brahmana. That was the idea there.
So, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur of course, uses another word, not saying we’re trying to be brahmanas, but our status is to be brahmanata in the category of Brahman [Laughs]. In other words, we are knowers of the actual meaning of the Vedas and the knower of what the brahmanas should know. We know the conclusion of everything. So we’ve got the status of knowing Krishna. In other words, brahmanata is equated with being a Vaishnava. So, our goal is to become a Vaishnava. And, that is the real status of Brahman. Not to get a thread and a mantra and say I’m a brahmana [Laughs].
So, in other words, again, we use that word brahmana, brahmanata, maybe the word brahmanata is a little clearer to emphasize that it’s not we’re trying to be brahmanas as such, but we’re actually surpassing that, and we’re getting the real essence of being a brahmana, that is, being a Vaishnava. So, anyway, that confusion is sometimes there, and we’re trying to be brahmanas and whatever like that. But our goal should definitely be to be knowers of Krishna. As is stated here also.
So, the Supreme Lord Himself supports the brahmanas and praises the brahmanas, and particularly if they’re following properly. But, he is also above them. He is above the brahmanas in that whole system of varnas. But, the Vaishnava is the exclusive worshipper of that Supreme Lord. The brahmana may or may not be worshipping the Supreme Lord exclusively. But the Vaishnava is worshipping exclusively that Supreme Lord.
So, though the Lord is praising the brahmana, the person who is a Vaishnava, who has complete conviction in the Supreme Lord, he is in a higher position, and the Lord is under his control. So, that’s also what we say. Krishna says, I am controlled by my devotee. I am neutral, but I favor my devotee. I am controlled by my devotee. Of course, statements okay, the Lord is controlled by the brahmana, and when the brahmanas eat, the Lord is satisfied, such statements are there. But actually, the highest praise goes to the Vaishnava. Of course, if he’s a brahmana Vaishnava, fine [Laughs].
But if he’s a Vaishnava and he’s not a brahmana, no problem. So, we see, for instance, Ambarish is a king. He’s not a brahmana, but he’s a great Vaishnava, and the Lord says, I give my Sudarshan Chakra to you, whatever [Laughs]. I surrender to you. I’m under your control. The Vaishnava is superior to me, whatever. He’s not a brahmana [Laughs]. And then we get cases, you know, of a Sudra or none, you know, lower than a Sudra. He also becomes more glorified. We have Gajendra [Laughs]. He’s an elephant, not even a human being [Laughs]. Lord comes and rescues him, because he’s a devotee. He wasn’t even a pure devotee. He was mixed devotee [Laughs]. He was praying to get rid of the crocodile, but still, the Lord comes and saves him, or whatever like that.
So, the Lord is responding to the devotion, not your caste, not your varna at all. So, we should be clear about that, the distinction here. So, within the society, yes, the brahmana is the highest, and the brahmana gets praised, and the devotees often take that role of being the brahmana in society, but then we see in the Bhagavatam, a lot of the times, the kings are the great devotees of the Lord. So, we have Dhruva Maharaj, and Ambarish, and so many, Yudhishtira, but they’re all, they’re not brahmanas at all, they’re kshatriyas [Laughs], and they’re the greatest Vaishnavas.
So, the Vaishnava can play a role within the varnashram system, but at the same time, he’s not really controlled by that, or limited by that role. He plays that role, but he is not limited by it, and he’s actually superior to it, in all cases. So, in this way, we should understand that the, when we use these terms, brahmana, etc., just what the real meaning is.
So, as Bhagavatam states, ultimately, the goal is to be the exclusive worshipper of that Supreme Lord, Bhagavan, and then, the Lord is most attracted to that. That person is dearest to the Lord, regardless of varna, or ashram, or any other feature of that, or whatever. So, that is the conclusion there. So, the Lord is the topmost, and He’s worshipable by everyone. He’s worshipable by all human beings, and the brahmanas, who are worshipped by everybody, the brahmanas must worship the Supreme Lord also. That’s their ultimate conclusion. They have to worship the Supreme Lord.
The problem, of course, is that, though, yes, the brahmanas accept Vishnu as supreme, etc., many do have an unclear idea. Many brahmanas have an unclear idea, and they say, Vishnu is okay, but there’s so many other equals, and so many devatas who are equal, etc., we worship them all [Laughs]. So, we get worship of many devatas, and so many things like that. So, there’s some little confusion among the brahmanas also.
So, of course, we’re looking for the final conclusion, and in Kali Yuga, everything is very confused. So, Veda Vyasa has written Bhagavatam to give us a conclusion of everything. And that conclusion is, let us surpass the Vedas, and even surpass Pancharatra, for that matter [Laughs].
And ultimately, we get down to just Bhakti itself, and in Bhakti, we get down to Nama Sankirtana. And we see that Nama Sankirtana, ultimately is the most radical in its approach of rejecting everything [Laughs]. Of course, Krishna says, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], give up all dharmas, etc., Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Astanga Yoga [Laughs]. And then, in Bhakti Yoga, we get rather extreme. Therefore Bhagavatam, we can say, is the same, in one sense. Yes, it also rejects everything in favor of Bhakti, and ultimately, the Holy Name.
So, when we get to Lord Caitanya, then this becomes a little more obvious, where He concentrates on the Holy Name and disregards varnashram, and caste, etc. completely. And there we find, explicitly, that He puts Haridasa Thakura as the Namacharya, when he had no Varna, no Ashrama at all. And he’s put in the highest position. Which was, we say, quite radical, even at that time, 500 years ago, what to speak of thousands of years ago [Laughs]. Generally, nobody dared to, you know, put people from outside the caste system, put them in a high position [Laughs]. But, he was put from the lowest position into the highest position by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. And all the devotees respected that.
So, in other words, quite a radical move in terms of, you know, etiquette of the Varna system, etc. So, in other words, the Holy Name disregards Varna, Ashram, etc., anything at all. And anyone is qualified to chant the Holy Name, anyone is qualified to get the highest position of realization of Krishna and Prema, etc., regardless of country, family, Varna, Ashram, or whatever, whether they have it or not. So, that is the position of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Just that conviction of Supreme Lord and dedication to chanting Krishna’s Name.
Other things can be done, but at the same time, we don’t rely on them. They are secondary options, or whatever, for us. And the main is that surrender to Krishna through chanting the Holy Name in performance of bhakti. Okay. Any question there?
Q & A :
1.) Thank you very much. I remember a Muslim king who assisted Rupa Goswami maybe, and other Goswamis in Vrindavan. He was interested in the spread of religion.
Oh, it’s Akbar, Akbar?
Devotee: Akbar, huh? He helped build the temple, I think. And he published Vaishnava literature. So, he was a servant of the Vaishnavas, although he was a Muslim king.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: So, he was put in a high position. He had no Varna. He was like a Mleccha. He would go to the Mlecchas and Yavanas and whatever like that. But, as Vaishnavas, we don’t care about that. And they get respect because they are believing in that Supreme Lord and doing service.
2.) Hare Krishna Maharaj. So, you mentioned about Varnas, but when it comes to ashrams, in Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, there are Babajis. And Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, I think, introduced saffron cloth. And sometimes he’s been criticized for that as well, that taking saffron in front of the picture of his Guru Maharaj, was that bona fide or not? So, the counter argument is that he had a dream. But then they might not accept it. We accept it because he’s our Acharya. So, on one side he said, like, he gave, of course, Vaishnavas higher position than Brahmanas. But then on the other side, for ashramas, he introduced saffron cloth. So, can you explain or give a bit of clarity on this?
Why he did that?
Devotee: Yeah.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Whatever. Of course, I don’t know his all reasons or whatever. And, yes, as you say traditionally, idea of Varna and ashram was not an ideal for the followers of Lord Caitanya. They may be following, according to their birth and whatever, the rituals, like the Brahmanas and whatever, like Lord Caitanya was a Brahmana and He followed [Laughs] whatever Brahmana society was doing at that time, do Upanayanam etc. And others were Kshatriyas. They followed Kshatriya customs and whatever as much as possible without contradicting Vaishnava principles. But, they were not so much concerned about varna or ashrama as such. It was only a matter of renounced or unrenounced. But, of course, we do have in the ashrama system renunciation in terms of sannyasa. Lord Caitanya took sannyasa. After that point, we don’t find sannyasis. The only option was something else. Not varnashram system at all. Let’s go beyond the varnashram system and renounce. So this is the Babaji. Not within the ashrams or the varnas. One who renounces both ashram and varna duties. That was the Babaji. So that was the renunciate beyond varna and ashrama. And the others who weren’t qualified for renunciation, if they were following varnashram system to some degree because they were born as Brahmanas, Vaishyas, Kshatriyas, Sudras, they would follow their varna duties or whatever. But, we didn’t find them going for sannyasa even [Laughs] at that time [Laughs]. I don’t think we have any record of them taking sannyas or whatever among the Gaudiya Vaishnavas. So that continued up until the time of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. But as I said, this doesn’t mean that they were rejecting the whole Varnashram system. Yes, the Babajis definitely do. But the others were following because they are not qualified for renunciation. So they follow their Varna and their ashrama technically. And most of them were by ashrama were grihastas [Laughs]. So they were grihastas within the Varnashram system. And they followed those particular duties. There may have been a few brahmacharis but I don’t hear any records. After Lord Caitanya, there are a few brahmacharis there after that, we don’t hear about any brahmacharis even. So that didn’t continue. But there was mainly grihasta ashram. So, at the time of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur then this is what we have. We have Vaishnavas practicing and they have their Varna rules according to their birth. And they have their ashram which is generally grihasta ashram. So, it’s not that they rejected Varnashram rules but they were, majority of them were qualified for sannyasa or anything. So they didn’t do that. And Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur then established his organization and then he introduced the brahmachari ashram and sannyasa ashram. So, it’s not that these are invented because they are already there within the system itself. But they were not being practiced much by the Gaudiya Vaishnavas. There may be a few, we don’t know [Laughs]. People who took sannyasa or brahmacharis etc, we don’t know. But, by and large, they were all grihastas. So, he introduced that. So, there is nothing forbidden in doing so. The main thing is that if we are following any rules of Varna or ashrama, it should not restrict our principles of bhakti. So, we find kings being great Vaishnavas and also following their kingly duties or whatever. Those duties didn’t contradict. So, fine. So, therefore, in making this organization, he introduced, again, the brahmacharis and the sannyasis as ashramas within his particular organization. So, there is nothing really wrong with that. It was not a tradition in the Gaudiya sampradaya, as such as I said. But it was not that it was also denied [Laughs]. So, therefore, he just introduced that, not as an absolute, because we should not be attached to Varna or ashrama as an absolute. If it becomes an absolute, and if we don’t practice it, we are sinful or something, then it becomes an anartha and it makes impure bhakti. Therefore, we can follow them to the extent they are useful for our spiritual advancement. And, of course, it was also useful for his organization of his society at that time. So, that’s the reason, as far as I can see, why he introduced them. He could have introduced something else and not called it brahmacharis and things to be renouncing the whole system, but just like he also [Laughs] introduced brahmana initiation, in the sense you get the Brahma Gayatri. This is something there to show that we are following to some degree the rules of Varna and ashrama. So, there can always be practice as long as they don’t interfere with the concepts of pure bhakti.
Devotee: I heard that Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, he took sannyasa instead of Babaji because he thought that Babaji was too advanced. Out of his humility, he thought he would stay within the Varnashrama. And also, he particularly, his mission was to preach. So, he took that particular parivrajakacharya type of sannyasa, that’s a traveling preacher, because Babaji is mostly focused on like bhajananandi, like just staying in one place and practicing bhajan.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, of course, I think that Babaji, he is free of Varnashram. And in one sense, he is not really restricted that you can’t go out and preach or whatever. But we find the tendency was that generally, if you are going to retire and renounce everything, you are just going to concentrate on your bhajan etc. So, the tendency was to be like a bhajananandi, so to speak, like that. Not necessary, it’s not a rule you have to be, but it’s also convenient for renunciation as such because they don’t want to be attached to the material world or associate with society etc. Now, technically, the sannyasi also should be the same. He should not be associating with society and you know, not associating with women and all the sort of stuff like that [Laughs]. But technically, that’s true in any case, whether you are a sannyasi or a Babaji or whatever. So, in that sense, they are equal in that sense. So, another point, of course, is that there was maybe a little bit of skepticism of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur about reputation of the Babajis at that time also. So, therefore, he didn’t maybe want to get involved in that. So, if he wanted to renounce, fine, good, but then he didn’t want to be a Babaji because then he gets associated with that group, which he was also criticizing [Laughs] to some degree. And instead, he just opted for the Varnashramika system instead. But, of course, I don’t know myself about that. It could be [Laughs].
3.) Hare Krishna. In the regard of those Goswamis, like caste Goswamis, even those worshippers of Radha Raman, I’m just wondering how this came to be, this title Goswami, and how is that accepted? And how is that introduced? Because they are not renounced yet, although I’m sure they are strict Vaishnavas. But how is that came to be?
How the Goswamis arose? Of course, we have the original Goswamis, Rupa and Sanatana were, you know, very renounced, etc. So, they established temples. And then in those temples, what they do is they got Pujaris, probably from Bengal, who were grihasthas. And they became the Pujaris of the temple after the disappearance of the Goswamis, of course, then they kept maintaining the temples. These became the Goswamis [Laughs]. Probably they were Brahmanas also. I would assume they were Brahmanas. And they were Gaudiya Vaishnavas. And they were worshipping the deities there. And they got fixed in those different temples. And they became the Goswamis. And they started hereditary lines of worship and whatever, like that. So that’s how those lines were established as such.
Devotee: Was there any criticism? Because this is introduction. This title is introduced. And then they rejected. Vaishnavas were, Sannyasi Vaishnavas were not prominent. And they accepted that title. How is that? It was probably criticized by?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Was that criticized by other people?
Devotee: Yeah, yeah.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, definitely by the smartas it would be [Laughs]. To just become a Vaishnava and give everybody, regardless of what varna they are, and start giving out Brahmana threads and Gayatri mantras to say you’re a Brahmana, that was rather radical at that time. Everything was previously determined by birth. Now, of course, theoretically it’s not by birth, it’s by qualification. But in practical terms, the birth was very much emphasized. And usually it was just automatic. You’re born in a certain family, that’s your varna, whatever, like that. So to go against that system was quite radical, even though theoretically in Bhagavatam it’s there. Nobody did it, practically speaking. So he was maybe the first to do that, and therefore it would cause a lot of criticism from you know, traditional circles or whatever. But he did that to show that actually the Vaishnava is superior to the Brahmana, and that we’re trying to be Brahmanas. So the actual statement of the Bhagavatam is also quite radical where it says that the dog-eater when he once chants the holy name purely, then he’s superior to the Brahmana and is qualified to do all the sacrifices that a Brahmana can do. That’s a very radical statement [Laughs]. It’s surpassing that whole system that was there. It was traditionally there. But nobody put it into practice as such. So then he actually did that. It could be more radical also [Laughs]. He did it. He introduced it along with pancharatrika initiation. That is what we call second initiation. You’re qualified as a pancharatrika Vaishnava by getting the mantra, the Vaishnava mantra, Krishna mantra. Then he gave the Brahma Gayatri and the thread. But we can also ask, well, why it requires that? Why not just the holy name? The holy name is even more powerful. So anyone who purely chants the holy name, he is qualified to be a Brahmana. So [Laughs] that’s a more radical step. But he didn’t take that step [Laughs]. But he set the qualification of being a pancharatrika Vaishnava atleast. But theoretically we say chanting the holy name is even more powerful than anything. So if you’re chanting that purely, then automatically you’re also qualified to be Brahmana or whatever.
Devotee: [Not audible]
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yes.
Devotee: [Not clear] They could worship the deities [Not clear].
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, theoretically, yes. The Vaishnava who is chanting purely is higher than even a pancharatrika Vaishnava, who maybe we don’t know whatever [Laughs]. And therefore he would be qualified. It’s just that if you’re doing that, you’re not following pancharatrika rules. So generally, for worshipping deities, the Gaudiyas do follow pancharatra. So therefore they set a limit there for worshipping deities, according to pancharatrika standards. And in fact, that’s the whole, in the Bhakti Sandarbha, Jiva Goswami goes to the different Angas of Bhakti, as done in the Nectar of Devotion also, lists all the different Angas, etc. And then he comes to Archana. So then, under Archana, he discusses qualification. And what is the qualification? Diksha [Laughs]. So Diksha is related to deity worship in his system. So once you’ve got the Diksha, you’ve got the mantra, with the mantra you’re qualified to worship the deity. So in one place he defines Diksha, and he said this is for rich householders. Diksha [Laughs]. Because if you’re just a Babaji, you’re not going to worship the deities, and whatever like that. And don’t spend your money for that, because you don’t have any money. But if you’re a rich householder, then you could spend your money on worshipping the deity, and that way you’re engaging your money properly [Laughs]. So Diksha is a good system for rich householders [Laughs]. So he relates it very much, Pantaratrika Diksha, with Diksha, and Diksha with worshipping according to, for householders, or whatever.
4.) Hare Krishna Maharaj. I’m just going to read these questions out. I think you’ve covered some of the answer to it, but I just want some more clarification, I guess, because maybe I’m still a bit confused. So the first part of the question is, as the Vaishnava and the Brahmanata, which I think you mentioned, is higher than the Brahmana and within the Varnas, then how can we understand that there’s two types of initiations that we’re given? I think you’ve covered that.
There are two types of initiations?
Devotee: Yeah, as in first and second initiations.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Oh, okay. Well, I didn’t really cover that, but if you want I can explain.
Devotee: And also, then the second question is, how can we understand this in relation to the Yuga Dharma, which is to chant the holy name, and yet within our society, there’s also deity worship and second initiation, in some sense, and that’s seen as more superior, and how much of that is misconception, that second initiation is more superior?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, so we do have deity worship. Deity worship is an Anga of Bhakti. It’s there among the nine principles, and there in the 64 Angas also, and it’s in the five principle ones mentioned by Rupa Goswami in Nectar of Devotion. Deity Archana is one of them. So it’s there, and we don’t reject any of the Angas of Bhakti. We give prominence to Hari Nama, Nama Sankirtana. That’s the most prominent one.That’s the Yuga Dharma. But, we’re not forbidden from the other ones, and then we have these five, Sadhu Sanga, Hearing Bhagavatam, Archana, etc., Kirtan, and living in the Holy Dham. So they’re all there among the five principle ones, and most of the Goswamis followed all five [Laughs]. So, Goswamis had deities also. It’s not that they rejected deities, they had deities, but their main principle, of course, is still Hari Nama. So, therefore, in Gaudiya Math and in ISKCON, we have deities also. But we should also understand that our main principle is, of course, Nama Sankirtana. That’s the main Yuga Dharma, and that should be emphasized over everything else. And we do have the deity worship, but that’s secondary. If we worship the deities and we don’t do Hari Nama, then it’s incomplete [Laughs]. If we have Hari Nama and we don’t have the deities, still it’s complete. In other words, it doesn’t depend on, but everything depends on Hari Nama, ultimately, chanting the Holy Name. So, there is prominence given to that. As far as initiation is concerned, there’s a controversy why we have two initiations. Technically, you should only have one initiation because you can only have one Diksha guru, whatever, like that. So, but anyway, we have the system we call first initiation, second initiation. Origin, of course, is a little interesting [Laughs]. Bhaktisiddhanta didn’t have two initiations. He only had one initiation, which is called that Diksha, second initiation. It’s called initiation. He had a ceremony, which we are deriving our first initiation from, which is very similar, but it wasn’t called initiation. But this first ceremony we call an initiation and make it more formalized. So, in ISKCON, therefore, Prabhupada made a more formal thing we call first initiation. We have second initiation. It becomes a little confusing, which is more important [Laughs]. So, in one letter, some devotee wrote and said, asked the question, and then Prabhupada said, second initiation is real initiation. But then another letter to another devotee, then he says, first initiation is more important [Laughs]. So, then we’re stuck. Well, what does all that mean [Laughs]? So, true, the second initiation is technically the initiation because it means getting your mantra, by which you’re qualified to worship the Deity. So, that is second initiation. If you don’t have that mantra, you cannot worship the Deity. So, that’s second initiation. Of course, in Caitanya Caritamrta it is said that Hari Nama does not depend on Diksha. And its perfection is Prema. And it does not depend on Diksha at all. So, then again, we get emphasis on Hari Nama over Pancharatra, Diksha, second initiation, etc. So, technically, no, not important in that sense. But it is part of Diksha. And if we want to stress Diksha, then that would second initiation would be important. However, most devotees go the opposite and they put more stress on first initiation, which technically is not the essence of the initiation because you don’t get the mantra. But we can say it’s a part one [Laughs]. At least we get a remnant of what is called Pancha samskara, which is the Pancharatrika ceremony for Diksha. The essence of which is the mantra. But you also get a name like Krishna Das. So, therefore, in our first initiation we get a name, so it’s part of the Pancha samskara of initiation but not the main part. So, we can’t call that the Diksha as such because you can’t worship the Deity or anything with just getting a name. You have to get your mantra. So, therefore, in one sense, it is, we can call it initiation because it’s part of the initiation, but it’s not the complete initiation. The most important part is in the second. So, then the first is there. So, how it becomes more important is because there’s more stress on chanting Hare Krishna there. And ultimately, in ISKCON and in the Gaudiya Sampradaya, we’re stressing Hari Nama over Deity worship, over Archana. Even though we don’t reject Archana, we have what we call Bhagavata marga following Bhagavatam rather than Pancharatra. And Bhagavatam stresses Nama Sankirtana. So, therefore, in first initiation we’re stressing chanting Hare Krishna, you get beads, etc. An objection would be that, of course, Caitanya Caritamrta says you don’t need initiation for chanting Hare Krishna. Which is true because we’re getting Hare Krishna and we’re chanting Hare Krishna long before we get initiation, so we’re not getting the mantra [Laughs], Hare Krishna then [Laughs] at all [Laughs] in first initiation. We already got it [Laughs]. We’re getting a new set of beads, but we had beads before also. So, what are we getting ultimately? We’re getting a name, which is part of the Pancharatrika process of Diksha. So, in that sense, it’s initiation or whatever. But otherwise, why is it emphasized more is simply because at least we’re establishing a formal relationship with a Guru and we’re vowing to chant a certain number of rounds, etc., and follow principles, etc. So, that gives more importance to it because it’s primarily centered on chanting Hare Krishna than anything else. So then, in that sense, it’s more important for us as devotees than the second initiation, which is the deity worship part like that. And we use, of course, we’re chanting Hare Krishna every day more than we’re chanting our deity mantras. In that sense, more important. Whether we should call it initiation or not, then that’s the controversy. But it is, we say, part of the initiation according to Pancharatra. But as far as, you know, Hari Nama needing initiation, that’s clearly stated in Caitanya Caritamrta, we don’t need initiation for Hari Nama [Laughs].
Devotee: It’s the bija of the devotional creeper. Isn’t that bija given at the first initiation? Is it at second?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: [Laughs] That statement does not really define what the bija is. It’s not in terms of initiation or not. One could take it as initiation, but one could simply take it as the beginning of devotional service whenever you start your devotional service. Whenever you start chanting Hare Krishna with a great faith in Krishna, that can be the bija.
Devotee: Sometimes it’s said the guru is giving the bija to the disciple.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Well, the mercy of guru and Krishna, you get the bija bhakti. It’s the bija bhakti. Some can interpret as mantra or whatever, even the, what to say, the sahajiyas, not the sahajiyas, but the followers of Raganuga will say, you’re getting your Siddha swarupa, that’s your [Laughs] that’s your bija [Laughs], or whatever like that. But in the broader sense, I think anyone who gets, develops faith and gets inspiration from a devotee to start practicing bhakti seriously and chanting holy name, that would be the bija. And then it could lead to initiation, but as we know, Hari Nama does not depend on initiation, so therefore the initiation could not be the bija in that sense.
Devotee 1: May I offer that the initiation may protect the bija, maybe the fence.
Devotee 2: That was I think something we covered in class yesterday.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: What’s that?
Devotee: That the initiation, the following Vani or Vapu is protecting us from the fences, the fence around the bija.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Yeah, yeah. Well, you could do that without initiation also, technically [Laughs]. But of course it’s formalized in that [Laughs]. If we need formalization, it’s important for the devotee, then it’s more important for him. If he doesn’t need formalization, then it would not be so important [Laughs].
5.) Hare Krishna Maharaj. Thank you so much for your class. So if the first initiation is just a formality, then it doesn’t really matter who your Diksha Guru is, as long as it’s in the parampara, anyone within that parampara can give Diksha. If it’s a formal?
You’re talking about first initiation or second initiation?
Devotee: First initiation.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Oh. Well, it depends on the devotee. It can be important or not important, depending on the devotee himself. But we should remember that in tracing Sampradaya, we don’t even trace a Diksha parampara. If you look in Bhagavad Gita, we’re not tracing a Diksha parampara at all. So, but, of course, we’re stuck in like ISKCON, to the mold that we have to follow the parampara so we have to get initiation. But that technically, that’s not true [Laughs]. We should be following a Siksha line. We can trace our line through Siksha, not through Diksha. We don’t have to deny Diksha, definitely. And, of course, even the people who are in our Siksha parampara, they also have Diksha Gurus, but [Laughs] we don’t trace it that way. So we can trace our line by Siksha instead of Diksha. We give more prominence to our Siksha Guru than our Diksha Guru, without denying a Diksha Guru. We should respect everybody. We give more prominence to the Siksha Guru, whoever gives us better teachings.
Devotee: So we should look for Diksha from the prominent Siksha Guru that we have?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: [Laughs] He does both for you [Laughs]. That’s the ideal situation. He does Diksha and Shiksha, but sometimes a lot of devotees get the Diksha from one and get the Siksha from another, so it’s like [Laughs] divided up. And there’s no problem with that, because you can have many Siksha Gurus. But as stated in Nectar of Devotion, they get equal respect. That’s one equal in general. But according to another system, the one who is more advanced and is giving you more significant knowledge, he would be the more prominent Guru, whoever that is, Siksha or Diksha.
Devotee: So then, should the devotee be vying for second initiation then?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Should he be vying for it?
Devotee: Yeah.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: [Laughs].
Devotee: And also, can you go back to Godhead without taking initiation?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Ah! Well, yes. According to Caitanya Caritamrta, the success of Hari Nama does not depend on Diksha. [Laughs] That’s, of course, radical, but [Laughs] a radical statement, but [Laughs] it doesn’t mean you reject Guru, because I’m not talking about Siksha, I’m just talking about the Diksha and the Pantaratrika process. So, yeah, without that Diksha, you could attain Prema, which of course would mean you don’t do deity worship also, at least formally in the temple or whatever like that. But you can always do in your mind as well, mental worship or whatever like that. What was the other question?
Devotee: And should the devotee be, therefore, vying for second initiation?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: Oh, should he or should he not? If he wants to do deity worship, he definitely has to vie for it. If he takes second initiation as a more serious commitment, fine, that’s no wrong with taking it as a serious commitment, but if he’s taking it simply because people say it is a more prestigious role [Laughs], you get a better name if you’ve got second initiation, if you’ve got first initiation or whatever, more respect, then that’s kind of a material reason, so that’s not a good reason at all. So, therefore, the goal of taking second initiation would be ultimately so you can do deity worship if that contributes to your chanting of Hare Krishna nicely, or supports it nicely, that would be the ideal reason for taking it.
Devotee: So, therefore, to help us develop within our bhakti?
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: It can, but some people take and they don’t even do deity worship, so in a sense, it’s not very useful. Because they take second initiation for some reason, but they don’t do deity worship at all, so then it’s not so useful. So, they could survive on first initiation in that sense. There’s a statement of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, he says actually, the one who takes shelter of the holy name is superior to the one who takes shelter of deity worship mantra [Laughs]. Deity worship mantra [Laughs]. So, it depends on the particular person, I suppose. But, of course, we don’t want to discourage temples from not having deities, and if nobody takes second initiation, you won’t have any pujaris, and you have to import them from India, and all problems are there, so we’re not trying to discourage [Laughs] people from taking second initiation [Laughs], causing problems to temples also [Laughs].
6.) Sorry, Maharaj. I have heard it somewhere, please correct me if it’s wrong, that Hari Nama can take us back to Godhead.
Well, that’s what Caitanya Caritamrta says.
Devotee: But, if we want to enter the intimate pastimes of the Lord, like Kunjas and Nikunjas, then we have to take Diksha from a bona fide guru, who would give us Artha Rupa, and all that stuff.
HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj: No, I haven’t heard that. Maybe it is stated by some people like that. Now, in the Raganuga texts, there is some mention of using your Diksha mantra, when you’re doing your Raganuga sadhana, and meditating on your Manjari form, or whatever, like that [Laughs]. You can use your mantra, etc. But, other than that, if we go to Caitanya Caritamrta, it doesn’t even mention anything like that. It just says, with Hari Nama, you get Prema, finished. It doesn’t say you need anything else. Of course, even that has a little stricture to it. Yes, Hari Nama, you can get to the perfection. You don’t need Diksha. But, you have to chant purely. And if you’re to chant purely, you need knowledge. And if you need knowledge, then you need some sort of guru [Laughs]. So, Siksha guru, maybe. At least. So, some little condition is there, even for Hari Nama. So, we’re not completely independent on our own, making up everything. Proper Siksha, proper line. So, at least, we have a Siksha parampara, even if we don’t have a Diksha parampara. At the same time, we don’t deny Diksha. And it’s a tradition in our parampara, etc. So, we don’t deny it. But, it’s not that it’s the most important thing. And, without it, you still can get Prema, if you chant purely. Okay. I think we’re over time.
Hare Krishna!
Devotees: Grantharaj Srimad Bhagavatam ki jai!!! HH Bhanu Swami Maharaj ki jai!!! Srila Prabhupada ki jai!!! Nitai Gaura Premanande Hari Haribol!!!